Talk:Albanians

Nation

Based on the definition of nation, which one can read on Wikipedia, the Albanians constitute a nation. I have made this edit as an addition. Considering the history of the Albanians, the political status in the Balkans regarding predominately ethnic-Albanian countries etc, the Albanians are most definitely not merely an ethnic group, but a nation as well. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Sources

I took some content used from Tsoutsoumpis and added it to the article. I added his paper in the list of sources for easy use. Cham-Axis collaboration is mentioned alongisde other major reasons. Botushali (talk) 03:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You just copy-pasted what another added at another article. Btw the Cham-claimed figure of 35,000 is ludicrous, since the actual number of Muslim Chams was just 20,000-25,000 in all of Epirus. Khirurg (talk) 03:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, as soon as I saw what Maleschrieber posted on Expulsion of Cham Albanians I decided to copy-paste that here. It's a good, succinct way to describe the multi-faceted reality of the Cham expulsion in line with WP:NPOV. The 35,000 figure may indeed be excessive, so remove that if you like. The main thing is to reflect the issues beyond a one-dimensional POV. Botushali (talk) 03:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Another problem is the sentence: "The first certain reference to Albanians as an ethnic group comes from 11th century chronicler Michael Attaleiates who describes them as living in the theme of Dyrrhachium." In fact Attaleiates mentiones an Celtic tribe and just once. So either cite the right reference or remove, please.Sorbonneparis (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Michael Attaleiates is referring to a Celtic tribe in the Balkans during the 11th century CE? Right… Botushali (talk) 21:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Explanatory footnotes edit warring

@Ahmet Q.:,@HoneymoonAve27:,@Maleschreiber:

All three of you have been involved in a slow burn edit war on whether to have {{efn|name=status}} in the article when Kosovo is mentioned. I'm not seeing any attempt at discussion, either here on this talk page or on your respective user talk pages. This is not how we do things here. Please note that WP:SUMMARYNO says edit summaries are not for "long-winded arguments with fellow editors". Yet another revert with a long edit summary isn't going to finally convince any of you of the veracity of the other's position. The status quo does not have the footnote. I encourage parties to leave it that way pending discussion on the issue here. Please discuss. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the thread, Hammersoft. I was expecting that the account who wants to propose the change was going to do so, hence I waited for them to start it but I probably should have started it myself.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Albanians from the Ottoman Empire

I just realized that in connection with the Ottoman Empire we have too many Albanian categories. So Albanina people of x descent categories should only exist for those who lived after the forming of Albanian in the 1910s. Someone who lived in the Ottoman Empire should be in the People from the Ottoman Empire of Boo descent cats. We currently have Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent, Category:Albanians in the Ottoman Empire and Category:Albanian people in the Ottoman Empire. This is clearly only at most 2 categories. Oh, it gets worse, we also have Category:Albanians from the Ottoman Empire that is a sub-cat of Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity which is a parent to the People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnic or national descent cat. We do not seem to have either Category:Macedonians from the Ottoman Empire or Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Macedonian descent. I can not state how much we are really following good principals in these categories. Clearly we should only have 2 Albanian categories at most, and I would ask 2 questions. 1-with much of the Albanian lands in the Ottoman Empire for several centuries, does it make sense to seperate descent and not descent cats? With American people of Albanian descent they are clearly in a state of being removed from the ethnic homeland, this is not the case for Albanians in the Ottoman Empire. The other issues that relates to this is, if we have someone in the Ottoman Empire who for whatever reason we are not comfortable saying they are in fact "Albanian", is their ethnicity at all defining. The big problem is that some category names were developed for cases like the United States and people from groups that immigrated to the US from elsewhere. They do not work easily in Eastern Europe.~~~~ John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

One issues is that for Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian and several other Balkan ethnicities we are using one term to describe 1-people who are ethnically that who live in the country 2-people who are ethnically that who live in other countries and 3-people who are not ethnically that, but are nationals of that country. There are reasons to use terms loosely, especially when it reflects usage in common practice. However there are limits. Right now for Albanians we have 1-Ventician Albanians 2-Kosovo Albanians 3-Yugoslav Albanians and 4-Albanaians from the Ottoman Empire (but see the mess there above). We do have Category:Albanians in Greece but that is not currently under Category:Albanians like the other categories. It is instead under Albanian diaspora, but are Cham Albanians really a diasporatic population? In some ways they seem more to harken to a time when the zone of ethnic Albanians was larger, if also more interspersed. Also I could see arguments for creating Category:North Macedonia Albanians, since that is another place where many ethnic Albanians reside, sometimes in fully Albanian communities. We have Category:Albanian communities in North Macedonia , and we do have Category:Albanians in North Macedonia. The names seem a bit messy.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

• It is not just the names of categories. Melos Bajrami is in Category:Albanians in North Macedonia. The opening describes him as a "Kosovoan professional footballer". He was born in what is now Resen, North Macedonia in 2001, so after Yugoslavia had dissolved. The first mention the article makes is that in 2021 Bajrami joined a football side in Korçë, Albania. So Did he grow up in North Macedonia or in Kosovo? How old was he when he moved? Did he actually live in Kosovo, or were his parents from Kosovo, went to North Macedonia in the 1999 or so war, and then stayed there, until at some point the family or him alone went to the country of Albania? In 2022 Bajrami goes to North Macedonia to play for a team there with an Albanian name, so I suspect many of its players are ethnically Albanian. It gets better, Bajrami was also eligible to represent Australia on the international level? So now it looks like Bajrami might fit in Category:North Macedonia emigrants to Austrlia; at least if we are willing to use that category for anyone who left North Macedonia from 1991 on, using a unified name for a unified polity. However does that category make sense if he is now back in North Macedonia? On the other hand if he could represent Australia, than in what way would he not be an emigrant? For now I have placed him in North Macedonia emigrants and Immigrants to Australia both because the unified category does not exist and because the issue of how he gained standing with Kosovo is unclear, so his move from North Macedonia to Australia may have been interrupted by time in Kosovo. Do we really want people in both Category:Macedonian people of Kosovoan descent and Category:Albanians in North Macedonia? There might be some people in North Macedonia who identify as "Kosovoan" who also identify as Serbian and not Albanian, but is it enough to justify having 2 distinct categories. On the other hand, are ethnic Albanians whose families have lived in what is now North Macedonia for generations a distinct group enough from those who more recently migrated from Kosovo, especially considering the area is all under 1 overall government until 1991? If they are distinct groups, should we at least make a setup where people would not be in both categories?John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Category:Albanians from the Ottoman Empire has more than 100 articles, while the other Ottoman-related cats you mentioned have around 10 each. Maybe the other cats should all be deleted as they are redundant. The Chams are not a diaspora but a native population which settled the area in the Middle Ages (before the 11th century). Category:North Macedonia Albanians could contain all North Macedonian Albanians, including those who live abroad. For comparison, Category:Kosovo Albanians and Category:Kosovo Serbs contain people who live abroad. Category:Albanians in North Macedonia could contain only those who live in North Macedonia. In any case, Category:Albanians in North Macedonia can't contain Albanians from North Macedonia who live abroad (including the "Kosovan" ones who are Albanians from North Macedonia with Kosovo citizenship). Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:41, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the existing Category:Macedonian people of Albanian descent is best for Albanian Macedonian individuals. --Local hero ^talk 19:02, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

"Macedonian of Albaniab descent" is misleading as it can be read as X person has Albanian ancestry but ethnic Macedonian identity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

That's an odd interpretation and I don't believe it applies to a single person currently listed in that category. This wording is pretty standard: Category:Greek people of Albanian descent, Category:Albanian people of Montenegrin descent, Category:Albanian people of Macedonian descent, Category:Serbian people of Macedonian descent, Category:Turkish people of Albanian descent, Category:Romanian people of Ukrainian descent, and so on... --Local hero ^talk 19:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Those cats are pretty standard bc whoever created them did not think twice about what they were doing. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Or maybe better said, those who added articles to those cats added whatever they could add without thinking carefully about what the cat names could imply. A Macedonian of Albanian descent might be an ethnic Albanian from North Macedonia but also an ethnic Macedonian with Albanian ancestry. A Macedonian Albanian can only be an ethnic Albanian from North Macedonia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

The standard naming of those (and many many more) categories is not the work of just one person clearly. Please see Wikipedia:Category_names#Heritage.

PS, a Macedonian Albanian is an ethnic Macedonian from Albania (an Albanian Macedonian is an ethnic Albanian from Macedonia). --Local hero ^talk 20:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Ofc it made sense to them, hence they made the mess. PS: "Macedonian Albanian" redirects to Albanians in North Macedonia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:25, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok then bring your case to "them". PS Albanian Macedonians redirects to that page as well. Hyphenated ethnicity involves putting the actual ethnicity first and the country adjective second. --Local hero ^talk 20:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I am not interested in wasting time with changing the names of some cats or getting them deleted, when those cats are hardly checked by any reader. I was just giving my opinion to the editor who raised the issues. "Croatian Serbs" redirects to Serbs in Croatia. Polish Germans redirects to a page which has links to both Germans in Poland and Poles in Germany. Hence "Macedonian Albanian" is not only used for (Slav) Macedonians in Albania as you claimed. Do not expect more responses from me. I prefer to use my time for better things. Bye, Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

• • I think since North Macedonia is the name of a country, but is not used to designate an ethnic group that Category:Albanians in North Macedonia is a good name for the category. It makes it clear that the people are Albanian by ethnicity, and are in North Macedonia. I could see an argument for Category:Albanians from North Macedonia. There is precedent for that. Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity has about 14 categories that use that form. To understand what is going on you have to keep in mind that these categories were created with a case like Category:American people of Albanian descent. The standard is the person lives in the United States, is a national of the United States, and had ancestors who left the designated area. That does not even always work in the US, for example there is Category:American people of Cerokee descent, which is distinct from Category:Cherokee people. The really messy thing is when you have ethnic minorities in one country who are part of an ethnic group that is the majority in another country named for it. However we do not always do descent. We have Category:Tatar people of Russia, which is placed directly into Category:Russian people by ethnic or national origin. There about half the contents are not in the X people of Y descent category, although it does open up to the alternate problem of some of those categories are going to have contents who are people who never were subjects of Russia no matter how you define that term. For example the Avar People category has many articles on people who lived at a time when Avar lived far beyond the boundaries of Russia. It is still probably better than trying to shoehorn such people into Category:Russian people of Avar descent. We have both Category:Tatar people of Russia (I wonder if it would be better named from) and Category:Russian people of Tatar descent. I am not sure we know which one people belong in, and I am not entirely convinced that if someone is not Tatar enough to be called Tatar, their Tatar ancestry is defining enough to categorize by. When a modern nation includes an area that is part of the long-standing ethnic homeland of a group, we might want to use that model. It might be good if we could agree on if we want to use of/in/from or something. There are other categories with names like Category:Russian Romani people. I am not sure that is a good name for a category at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
• I just found Category:Ragusan Albanians, which was placed as a child of Category:Albanian people by ethnic or national origin. This was a wrong placing. Albanian people by ethnic or national origin is meant to divide up people who are nationals of Albania, the country, by their "ethnicity" or "national origin". Its most intricate tree is Category:Albanian people of Yugoslav descent. However it is a container category. Through its sub-cats it includes Krsto Aleksov, who may have died in 1918, so I am not sure how he could have descent to a country that was not really formed until the year he died. He was "Albanian" in that he was born in the modern borders of Albania at a time when it was part of the Ottoman Empire. He actually did things causing him to have an article in others places in the Ottoman Empire.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:08, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
• Sterjo Spasse does seem to somewhat fit in Category:Albanian people of Macedonian descent, although he is also in Ethnic Macedonian people. He was a writer who wrote in Albanian, so he had more connection with the country than just residing in its borders. Still the fact that he was born in the Albania just after it gained independence from the Ottoman Empire means his ancestors did not move out of "Macedonia" to "Albania", to what extent they moved it was to different places in the Multi-ethnic Ottoman Empire where people from various ethic groups resided in various places.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:13, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  Please start a discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. This is clearly a topic that involves more than just one or two categories and requires input from a variety of editors. --Local hero ^talk 20:20, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  • It might actually need something more like an RfC. The issue is that there are lots of nuances involved, and it needs to be thought of very broadly.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Religion

Remove the "82%" in muslim albanians. They make only 59% of the population. Christians make 38% of the population and you should ignore the 2011 census because it was claimed as inappropriate by Council of Europe. 188.172.110.100 (talk) 10:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Religion of Albanians

Remove the "Predominately" and "Minority" terms, because it's a very big mistake. Albanians have the largest religious deversity in Europe. 188.172.111.231 (talk) 07:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)