Talk:Larry Sanger
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Proposed draft[edit]
Should we replace the current version with the proposed draft? QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Extended content
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Option A (proposed draft)[edit]
Option B (current version)[edit]
Option C (new proposal)[edit](place third option here) Comments on proposed draft[edit]
Several examples of the current issues: See current wording in this article: See news article: "Freed from Nupedia’s constraints, Wikipedia took off quickly. Yet to hear Sanger’s version of events, things started to go off the rails just months after it was launched."[1] See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See accurate content in proposed draft: I also added new content to the lede and body: One example of the new content in the lede: "He ended his participation in Wikipedia in 2002 because of a lack of quality control.[12]" This new content replaces "...but became increasingly disillusioned with the project and left it in 2002." One example of the new content in the body: "After a few failed attempts to assemble experts to review articles, he eventually left Wikipedia in January 2003.[18]" You may be thinking why I didn't revert the changes. I tried before. I was reverted by Bastun.[2][3][4] There are numerous more examples of problematic content. For example, on 19:06, 17 August 2019 content about Critics of child-porn allegation was added. But there are no "Critics" accusing Sanger and it is a blog website. The content fails verification and the source is unreliable. Another recent example: on 19:55, 17 August 2019, John M Wolfson added the co-founder debate to the lede. The previous month on 05:42, 28 June 2019, user Johnuniq stated: "There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that." On 05:46, 28 June 2019 user John M Wolfson agreed it should not be in the lede: "...there's no reason to bring it up in the lead...". There is also the problem with incoherent wording. See Larry Sanger#Nupedia and Wikipedia. This section disorganised and hard to follow. It also contains WP:SYN violations. For example, see "While such issues..." and see "Sanger responded to these trends...". Unsupported weasel words or misleading weasel words such as "accused" should be replaced with more neutral words. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch. See MOS:ACCUSED. One of the words to look out for is "accused". Numerous news articles were deleted and replaced with a book written by Andrew Lih. The entire book is not freely available to read online, while the news articles are freely available to read. I also noticed that there is the content cited to the book that fails verification. For example, see "At the Wizards of OS conference in September 2006, Sanger announced the launch of a new wiki-based encyclopedia called Citizendium—short for "citizens' compendium"—as a fork of Wikipedia.[54] " Sourced content should not be replaced with failed verification. Because anyone can edit any page, there are people who write skewed articles. Opaque or overgeneralised content in the lede is counterintuitive for our readers who may be unfamiliar with the subject. There is currently content in the lede as well as the body that is misleading or biased. I think it would be best to expunge the content not found any source. This is in accordance with core policies WP:V and WP:NOR, as well as WP:RS. It is best to restore the citations in the lede for this article, especially when cited content was replaced with unsourced biased content. See MOS:LEADCITE: "The lead must conform to verifiability, biographies of living persons, and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead." The current lede does not conform to Verifiability and other policies. Content likely to be challenged must have an inline citation, according to MOS:LEADCITE. This is not my rule. This is Wikipedia's consensus. Good articles contain citations in the lede such as Lily Cole[5] and Bomis.[6] It is better to eliminate guesswork and stick to verifiable content. This is best accomplished with inline citations in the lede for articles that have a history of problematic content. There is a lot to read for this proposal because there is a lot of problematic content. QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Keep the discussion in one place[edit]@QuackGuru: I see you're discussing this on Randy Kryn's talk page in the section titled "Lede". Please keep all relevant comments together on this page. Thanks! YoPienso (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
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Time to shut this down[edit]
I'm going to collapse this unproductive discussion because QuackGuru is actively ignoring policies and input from other editors, including users Bastun, John M Wolfson, Horse Eye Jack, Dicklyon, Randy Kryn, and myself. YoPienso (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I just collapsed it. QuackGuru's blanking of my comments on her/his talk page show their unwillingness to listen or collaborate, so we should just move on. YoPienso (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Recent Sanger criticism of Wikipedia[edit]
Unproductive thread |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/ Should this link be added to the article where it talks about his criticisms of the wiki??--1.152.111.77 (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Greyfall, it should be included here. I don’t see why his essay would garner widespread coverage, Wikipedia isn’t usually a topic in media, but the coverage from one RS is enough for inclusion here IMO. petrarchan47คุก 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Larry Sanger's criticisms of Wikipedia are not noteworthy. He's been bitter ever since he left (which was early on, before Jimmy Wales turned it into a huge success) and has had nothing but a string of failed endeavors ever since. All this, despite desperately clinging to the title of "co-founder" which is his only real claim to notoriety. His opinions should not be given undue weight. TempDog123 (talk) 05:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC) Judging from the small Greek WP "community", he is 110% correct. If he is not notable, why has an article in WP?--Skylax30 (talk) 09:42, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
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Question of Neutrality[edit]
There are 2 examples of Wikipedia Knockoffs that have different political leans Rational Wiki and Conservapedia are on opposite sides of the political spectrum both thinking Wikipedia is too bias hence they felt the need to make those.
While one is more Christian aligned the other is more aligned with the Intersectional faith both mostly focus on politicized subjects or "their side of the argument"
We should be looking at it from a neutral perspective ignore weather its right or left bias and investigate if there is any bias.
I wouldn't call this a left right issue more an ideological one i recommend reading The ultracalvinist hypothesis: in perspective by Mencius Moldbug which covers the contemporary left in the Occident and the Puritan hypothesis
relevant but knowing what Larry Sanger thinks about this type of thing might help,
If Wikipedia is found to be bias should that not be taken as constructive criticism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.203.23 (talk) 01:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- Calling someone "biased" is one of the least constructive criticisms possible, since it is equally applicable to everybody and everything and says nothing except "I disagree". And I don't think RationalWiki says Wikipedia is biased. They are pro-science and anti-crackpot, like Wikipedia, but their rules are not as strict. Conservapedia, on the other hand, is anti-science and pro-crackpot.
- Independent of that: how is your contribution connected to improving the article? --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- "..like Wikipedia,"LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4570:A710:C99E:AFCB:8995:1DF3 (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- As the saying goes, the fish doesn't know he's wet. 2601:642:C401:72D0:65BD:84FA:9538:B514 (talk) 20:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- "..like Wikipedia,"LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4570:A710:C99E:AFCB:8995:1DF3 (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
When did he swing totally into the conspiratorial American right?[edit]
Mostly irrelevant to the article itself
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I was curious about this guy years ago, and was intrigued by his attempts to counter Wikipedia's apparent influence with projects like Citizendium. Just a few days ago, I looked him up again, and his Twitter feed reads like something off of InfoWars. Has he always been this way? Is it some kind of hyper-contrarianism? It didn't seem like there were signs of this back when he had news articles written about him. 2601:1C0:4500:BFD0:C11D:E899:8C21:5BE3 (talk) 04:34, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Um... I cannot see any connection to improving the article in this paragraph. You know, improving the article? Purpose of Talk pages? WP:NOTFORUM? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2021[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add that he changed his mind on WikiLeaks - https://twitter.com/lsanger/status/1341483236493565954 185.143.144.166 (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Photograph[edit]
The photo of Sanger is about sixteen years old. Is there a more recent one that we could use? — Mhawk10 (talk) 02:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Sanger falsely claimed...[edit]
...that COVID-19 vaccines are "not a vaccine". This statement is cited to Newsweek alone, is this an adequate source for such characterizations on a BLP? SmolBrane (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please clarify. Are you asking whether Sanger made the statement or whether it is false? Johnuniq (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm asking whether Newsweek is qualified to describe his statement as false. I see that Newsweek has "no consensus" status at the perennial reliable sources page. Mostly a technical inquiry for my sake, note I haven't made an edit; just wondering if Newsweek is a good enough source on its own for a qualification like this. SmolBrane (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that contradict that such a statement by anyone is false, IOW that Sanger was right? If not, then Newsweek is making a factual and uncontroversial statement of fact and can be used. Sanger did indeed make a false statement, as he does in many other situations. He's become a fringe caricature, far removed from reality on many important issues. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, I was just wondering how questionable sources are treated when they are sole sources of seemingly conventional observations. SmolBrane (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- They are used on a case-by-case basis, and for uncontroversial statements of fact they are just as good as any other source. If he said that, then it's really a no brainer to say it's false. Any source with an ounce of credibility will recognize that it's an ignorant and ridiculously false statement, and considering some of the other stupid things Sanger believes, it's not surprising. Newsweek is good enough for this usage. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- So, COVID-19 vaccines provide immunity to COVID-19?
- If you are going to call Sanger ignorant/stupid and prone to making ridiculously false statements ... then this is what you have to assert. Comfortable denigrating the man on a falsehood? 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Not immunity. Protection. Vaccinataed people have a lower risk of infection, lower risk of complications and lower risk of death.
- This page is for impoving the article, not for your WP:FORUM contributions. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- They are used on a case-by-case basis, and for uncontroversial statements of fact they are just as good as any other source. If he said that, then it's really a no brainer to say it's false. Any source with an ounce of credibility will recognize that it's an ignorant and ridiculously false statement, and considering some of the other stupid things Sanger believes, it's not surprising. Newsweek is good enough for this usage. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, I was just wondering how questionable sources are treated when they are sole sources of seemingly conventional observations. SmolBrane (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that contradict that such a statement by anyone is false, IOW that Sanger was right? If not, then Newsweek is making a factual and uncontroversial statement of fact and can be used. Sanger did indeed make a false statement, as he does in many other situations. He's become a fringe caricature, far removed from reality on many important issues. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm asking whether Newsweek is qualified to describe his statement as false. I see that Newsweek has "no consensus" status at the perennial reliable sources page. Mostly a technical inquiry for my sake, note I haven't made an edit; just wondering if Newsweek is a good enough source on its own for a qualification like this. SmolBrane (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that too often gets overlooked isn't WP:RS or WP:V but WP:PROPORTION (and WP:ONUS). Is every tweet that gets mentioned in the news (positively or negatively) appropriate for a biography? --Animalparty! (talk) 23:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Sanger Interviews on YouTube are considered unreliable sources?[edit]
I added this to the article: He further adds that since Wikipedia encourages the use of secondary sources instead of primary sources, Wikipedia is heavily censored by center-left-wing media, saying that, "You can’t cite the Daily Mail at all. You can’t cite Fox News on socio-political issues either. It’s banned. So what does that mean? It means that if a controversy does not appear in the mainstream center-Left media, then it’s not going to appear on Wikipedia."[1] Despite having a neutrality policy, he said that the viewpoint of Wikipedia articles represent the consensus viewpoints, and users are prohibited from adding counter-arguments, which would help create a more neutral article, to established views.[2] He claimed that Wikipedia can give a "reliably establishment point of view on pretty much everything" and "if only one version of the facts is allowed then that gives a huge incentive to wealthy and powerful people to seize control of things like Wikipedia in order to shore up their power. And they do that."[3]
It was removed on the basis that my sources were unreliable. The information shouldn't be removed, since I provided a video interview with Sanger that was uploaded onto YouTube. YouTube is generally considered unreliable, but an exception should be made in this situation. It's literally a video interview with Sanger. Timestamps are also provided in the reference tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilAhok (talk • contribs) 02:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- You gave no reason why an exception should be made. "It's an interview" is not a reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sanger can't even be represented using his own words? Well done Wikipedia ... you are truly a modern marvel of mis/dis-information! 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Freddie Sayers (July 14, 2021). "Wikipedia co-founder: I no longer trust the website I created". youtube.com (Podcast). UnHerd. Event occurs at 16:28. Retrieved May 25, 2022.
- ^ Freddie Sayers (July 14, 2021). [https:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0P4Cf0UCwU "Wikipedia co-founder: I no longer trust the website I created"]. youtube.com (Podcast). UnHerd. Event occurs at 8:30. Retrieved May 25, 2022.
{{cite podcast}}
: Check|url=
value (help) - ^ Cite error: The named reference
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was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
- We just keep unreliable sources out. Sanger can talk and write all day long on all subjects he likes, but his ideas only become noteworthy for Wikipedia if reliable sources notice them. It's not that difficult to understand, except for people who think that the opinion of a Random Guy on the Street must be heard together with the experts. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:24, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- And who decides the list of "reliable sources" but a group of highly experienced WP editors and admins? Would you state that WP is "neutral" and "without bias"? Plenty of research shows that WP is very much left-leaning and biased, see [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], and [15].
- If WPs main editors and admins are biased, then this curated list of allowed "experts" will be biased. That's it. Am I missing anything?
- 2601:19E:427E:5BB0:A851:8803:B06B:49D1 (talk) 15:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- See WP:YESBIAS. That Wikipedia is 'biased' is not the problem you seem to think it is. MrOllie (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, what is missing is a better solution. If you have one, go to Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources. Pro tip: Sanger's solution is not better, all his encyclopedias failed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Phunware[edit]
I am no longer a Phunware advisor, which was a one-year thing and by mutual agreement not renewed. --Larry Sanger (talk)— Preceding undated comment added 20:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Experts[edit]
I don't understand this newly-added quote: "One thing that I would have done, could have done, and should have done right away would be to create a process whereby articles were approved by experts."
But then, it would have exactly the same "biases" he complains about: against lunatic charlatans and against wacky Republican fantasies. So, he does not seem very consistent. Maybe the quote is out of context? --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm ... if articles were approved by experts then Wikipedia might qualify as a reliable source! 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 19:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- You want articles approved by experts? Cos this is what happens when you have articles approved by experts... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it's being taken out of context. As the article mentions, Sanger created another wiki project called Citizendium, which had the goal of having all of its articles approved by experts. However, many of these "experts" turned out to be pseudoscience-pushing cranks with questionable credentials. I think we can safely assume that if he was still actively involved with the project, any articles on election fraud would have to be approved by the World's Leading Experts™ on the subject, Dinesh D'Souza and Mike Lindell. Partofthemachine (talk) 21:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Personal Life and Religion[edit]
Presently, the article claims that Sanger is agnostic. This appears to no longer be true. The statement is well-sourced with three citations, yet these citations are at least three years old, and in the most recent, Sanger expressed openness to religion.
More recently, in March 2023, Sanger posted to his website an article indicating deep Bible study habits. The article itself does not confirm a change in religion, but outlinks to a Telegram chatroom where his Christian belief is explicitly stated.
Perhaps a better source is needed, but at the very least, it seems the current article content is incorrect. Doughbo (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- An update may be needed depending on what the explicitly stated belief actually says. I don't see any conflict with being agnostic and studying the Bible or expressing an openness to religion. It doesn't say he's an atheist. --Onorem (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think you meant to link to Telegram (software). Partofthemachine (talk) 03:01, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
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