Talk:Canadian nationalism

Who Gutted This Article

Who the hell did that? It was bad enough that the criticism section contained a ridiculous reference to the U.S. embargo on Cuba and accusations of superficial anti-Americanism, but now it has been cut in half and made as the first section (it was originally the last). Also the entire history of Canadian Nationalism has been deleted, sorry part of it has been placed akwardly in the introduction. How stupid is that? (Canadianpunk77 06:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

I re added the section on Canadian nationalism's history, however I focused only on the movement's political history and left socio-demographic references out. I also included references. I am really dissapointed in whoever originally gutted the article, they didn't even edit it properly.

Far too much bias in the criticism section

Obviously not written by a fan of Canadian nationalism :). One thing that bothered me was the use of the U.S. embargo against Cuba as an example of Canadian nationalists supposedly opposing U.S. policy for little reason other than anti-Americanism. What garbage! More than 170 nation-states in the U.N. oppose the U.S. embargo on Cuba because it is hypocritical and detrimental to the living standards of the Cuban people. Canadian nationalists are mearly guided by their political principles, not by some superficial hatred of the United States of America.

I also had a problem with this: "This internationalist left has been increasingly prominent since the rise of the anti-globalization movement symbolized by the Zapatista rebellion against NAFTA in 1994, and demonstrations against the World Trade Organization in Seattle in 1999."

I won't bother changing it now but I think that it is wrong and based largely on POV. For example during most anti-globalization demonstrations in Canada such as Montebello, Canadian nationalists are usually the largest contingent outnumbering Anarchists and international socialists. Also most opposition amongst the Canadian public to the effects of globalization here on Canada tend to be of a nationalistic and environmentalist nature, as opposed to having it's basis in a particular ideology of the Far Left.

And isn't nationalism at least a small contributor to the ideology of the EZLN in southern Mexico? Again POV annoys me.

(Canadianpunk77 21:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC))

I decided to change that silly last point by adding that these organizations are marginal at best when compared to "left nationalist" groups and by removing the references to the Zapatista rebellion in Chiapas and the protests in Seattle which though significant have little to no relavency in Canadian politics and were not driven primarly by the "international" socialist or Marxist ideology expressed by the author of that paragraph.

(Canadianpunk77 21:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC))

I also find it interesting that both of the Marxist "theoriticians" (Paul Kellog and David McNally) who have written critiques on Canadian Nationalism from a leftwing point of view happen to be Americans. :)

(Canadianpunk77 20:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC))

I agree with the obvious Canadian dissenters on here (like myself) in that this article was written probably by the same Americans who wrote the one on American Nationalism and somehow didn't like that maybe us being against Manifest Destiny didn't mean we had any hostile feelings or Anti-American attitude. In Canada this is fairly simply defined as two groups of thought since our creation and earlier...Continentalists and Nationalists...one is for a merger with the US on different levels...the other is for both cultural and political independence, but does not make them isolationists. I really think the Canadians must rise up and seize the articles about us that clearly have either an ignorant or bias opinion about Canada and Canadian history. If the Americans want to add "Some Americans feel"...fine, but otherwise...we need solid references. Canada has never shown any hostile posture towards the US...ever...so I don't know why anyone would correlate national pride with that. There is anti-American attitudes in Canada, but those are mutually exclusive to the definition of Nationalism.--Thehighlndr (talk) 03:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Shuold this article by divided to describe two very differant Canadian nationalist ideologies?

I think that Canadian nationalism fits into two very opposite political tendancies, and that is the leftwing or centre-left economic and cultural nationalism of the Council of Canadians, the NDP, Canadian Labour Congress, the Canadian Auto Worker's and activists like Maude Barlow, David Orchard, James Laxer and Buzz Hargrove. This ideology I think takes it's inspiration from a wide variety of sources ranging from the Macdonald-Cartier alliance, to the republicanism of Papineau and Mackenzie, to the pan-Canadianism of Henri Bourassa finally to the economic nationalism of Trudeau (an ideological anti-nationalist) and the political Left.

Than you have the rightwing ideological tendancy of Canadian nationalism. The xenophobic, usually English Canadian (since conservative French-Canadian nationalism is usually manifested as Quebec nationalism), Christian conservative, ideology centered around opposition towards immigration, multiculturalism and usually bilingualism. This is the nationalism of the Confederation of Regions Party, Canada First and all of Paul Fromm's umbrella organization, the Heritage Front, and individually of members of the former Reform Party and present Conservative Party of Canada. Their symbol, quite often, though not always tends to be the former Canadian flag, the British Red Ensign as they sometimes see our Canadian Flag (a symbol of leftwing Canadian nationalists) as being a liberal and multicultural invention.

Both are arguably Canadian nationalisms, however they share little to nothing in the way of values or beliefs. Than of course there is non-political Canadian nationalism but that I think is best identified as patriotism or individual sentiment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.85.176 (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Should some mention be made of the present goings on vis-a-vis Arctic sovereignty? Canadian Nationalism certainly appears to be flavoring the opposition to Russia's recent claiming of the North Pole.

I have already argued many of the points and accusations brought up against my article. IE: Canadian Nationalism is more than "just anti-Americanism", it is possible to be a Canadian Nationalist and to support friendship with the U.S., also you do not have to be leftwing to be a Nationalist in this country.

A Canaidan Nationalist is somebody who A. holds an appreciation for the customs, values, heritage and history of this nation and B. wishes to see Canada remain united and independent. This can be a broad, or "vague" if you prefer discription in some cases, but it is 100% accurate and correct. So can we please put the nuetrality dispute to rest on this article. I made my points on this talk page almost a year ago! (Chris Gilmore)

Don Cherry a nationalist? When he's always saying Canada should do what the U. S. wants? Anyway, until someone can provide some evidence that he's a nationalist I have moved the following text here:

• Don Cherry - Controversial conservative Hockey Night in Canada Host, former player

John FitzGerald 13:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Cherry is not a nationalist. He has a North American, rather than a distinctly Canadian, identity. Deleting Unnecessary Words 01:45, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Don Cherry may hold rightwing political views and he does advocate cooperation with the Americans on most issues, however he has always been an ardent enthusiast for Canadian traditions and Canadian history. And he has passionately stated his love for his nation since the beginning of his career, and one more thing he has never considered himself to be a "North American" in identity, he has always and continues too to this day proudly call himself a Canadian.

Somebody does not have to be leftwing or anti-american to be a nationalist in this nation. And i was trying to convey that message in this article. I think that that is something that anybody who tries to write an article about Canadian nationalism should keep in mind. (Chris Gilmore)

Trudeau

Trudeau was explicitly anti-nationalist. Surely his inclusion here is inappropriate and, at the very least, betrays a certain POV. Deleting Unnecessary Words 01:37, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're right. The original I modified had a distinct POV, defining Canadian nationalism so it included pretty well anybody. Which is wht's happened to Canadian nationalism altogether, I suppose. John FitzGerald

Cultural Nationalism

• Quebec uses the Napoleonic code? Canada was British decades before Napoleon came around, how could that be?

• Quebec was allowed to continue using the Napoleonic legal code, or atleast it's own modified version of it after Confederation in 1867. (Chris Gilmore)

Surely it is inappropriate to group the Christian Heritage Party and the Department of Canadian Heritage under the same cultural nationalist heading when the have almost exactly opposite points of view. Thoughts? Deleting Unnecessary Words 01:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's nothing in Christian Heritage Party of Canada which suggests that nationalism is a big priority for them. I'd say a government department doesn't belong here, but the definition used in this article is so broad it probably satisfies it. Perhaps we should be thinking about using a more conventional definition. John FitzGerald 01:02, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well I wrote that section and I apologize if it creates any confusion. I felt that it was necassary not to exclude the many viewpoints regarding Canadian culture. Many different organizations and groups of people have diverse perspectives on what exact composition forms our culture. The Christian Heritage Party although I disagree with many of their viewpoints has a very stong culturally nationalist agenda. They view Canadian cultue as having strictly Christian origins and have expressed a strong desire to preserve those customs and traditions, that's basically the whole reason for their existence. They also define themselves as a nationalist movement. In regards to the Department of Canadian Heritage, maybe I was wrong to list a gov.t dept., but the whole reason for that Dept.'s existence is to preserve, promote and teach matters of cultural importance in Canada (traditions, history, customs, etc.). (Chris Gilmore)

Bourassa/Arcand

Bourassa wasn't a Canadian nationalist, was he?

In fact he was. John FitzGerald

Arcand seems doubtful to me, too. Someone who worshipped a foreign leader seems unlikely to have been a nationalist. John FitzGerald 13:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Henri Bourassa despite some misunderstanding was a pan-Canadian nationalist. Although he was a French-Canadian nationalist as well, his self stated dream was for Canadians (Anglophone and Francophone) to develop a shared national identity and culture free of British and American influence. He always advocated national unity during his entire career.

Arcand is not my favourite choice among my country's nationalists, but he was a Canadian nationalist. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his views his belief was in a sovereign Canada, and to him true Canadians were only those of British and French origin. So his goal was to preserve a puirely Anglo-French Canada. He may ahve admired Hitler, but he did not want Canada to become a German colony. So I think he should be listed, but I have absolutely no problem debating this issue further. (Chris Gilmore)

I can tolerate most names on the list (although I generally find such lists to be counter-productive), but Chrétien and Mackenzie King? Please. The sum of their convictions was zero. They had neither ideas nor aims for Canada. Opposing the Iraq War because it's the politically popular thing to do does not make one a nationalist. Let's stick to figures who had explicit, obvious, virulent nationalistic streaks: Macd'y, Cartier, Diefenbaker; there are plenty to choose from. Albrecht 23:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Nationalist (Canada)

Somehow, this page had gone unnoticed by me until now. I think it should be merged with Nationalist (Canada).

- Sounds like a good idea, could you possibly put it under this title. Because the term Canadian nationalism makes it clearer that the article is refering to the pride felt by Canadians about Canada. Nationalist (Canada) may lead to confusion. (Chris Gilmore)

Also, Arcand was a reactionary who favored a federation-wide nationalism. Also, Trudeau may have been anti-nationalist when it was time to bash Quebec nationalism, but his political actions litterally contructed the current official image that Canada has of itself and that the federal government promotes inside and outside Canada (officially bilingual and multiculturalism). How could he be seen as the father of the modern Canadian nation while not being nationalist? -- Mathieugp 03:15, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good point. Why don't we add some nuance by suggesting that there are ethnic nationalists and civic nationalists, and that someone like Trudeau could oppose one form of nationalism while supporting the other? Deleting Unnecessary Words 20:08, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Trudeau's position on Arctic sovereignty shows how little of a nationalist he was. In The Canadian Way he even claims that by the 1970s Canada had made no territorial claim in the Arctic – that of course justifying his innovative policy of making Canada the janitor in charge of the Arctic.

Of course, given the broadness of the general definition of nationalism, Mathieu is perfectly right if the broad conception is what we're talking about. If we're using the usual Canadian understanding of the term I think the answer's different, and one problem I see with the article is it glosses over the narrower definition. D. U. W. is right about the article needing nuance. John FitzGerald 17:46, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is there a usual Canadian understanding of the term? I would suspect that people in Alberta, Ontario, and Quebec would all have different understandings of nationalism. Deleting Unnecessary Words 17:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. I do think, however, that most Canadians would consider Mr. Trudeau less of a nationalist than James Laxer, say. Most Canadians who had ever heard of them, I mean. I guess what I would really like to see in the article is acknowledgment that Canadian nationalism can be defined in a way which does not classify every Canadian as a nationalist. It would probably be a good idea if I want that for me to do some research, eh? No doubt there are definitive publications.

I agree. As it stands, any prominent Canadian seems to be considered a Canadian nationalist in this article. Otherwise, why are Chrétien and Joe Clark included? Deleting Unnecessary Words 20:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Something else which might be included is the current trend to identify English-Canadian nationalism with anti-Americanism. There are probably no definitive publications about that, though. Fils de Gérald 19:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we need some mention of anti-Americanism. J.L. Granatstein's Yankee Go Home? is probably the closest we have to a definitive text. Deleting Unnecessary Words 20:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have a look. Anti-Americanism has always been an important foundation of English-Canadian nationalism (the War of 1812 and all that) but these days it seems to have little other content. John FitzGerald 14:41, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I also agree with Mathieu that the articles would be better merged. Which is easy for me to say, since I think Mathieu and D.U.W. are more up the job than I, and I'll be limiting my contribution to cheering them on from the sidelines. John FitzGerald

This article reads like someone just plunked the text of some college essay into here. It deserves a cleanup and an attempt to make the content more even-handed. user:J.J.

Good luck. The text added to the article since I last looked at it is, I suppose, an improvement in the original article in some ways, but highly questionable – the American economic takeover started before NAFTA, for example. And what is "pure Irish descent"? Ain't no such thing. Even if there were such a thing, I doubt many Canadians would be of it (I'm of impure Anglo-Norman descent myself), or of pure British or French descent, either. Something scholarly is required here, which means I'm leaving the clean-up to someone else. John FitzGerald 13:16, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Again I'm sorry for alot of the confusion that I've created, but I didn't have time to do any large scale research, just stuff I've learned in school and a little bit here and there and I was hoping that other Canadians would help along the way. Which is obviously happening. First of all I would say no, it is not fair to claim that "English" Canadian nationalism has little other content than anti-americanism, it ignores the shared history, values and traditions of Canada as a whole, and the pride felt by millions of English and French speaking Canadians alike. And when I refered to "pure" decent I was simply refering to people who are predominately of one ethnic heritage, and not mixed. Yes I know that every ethnicity if you go back far enough originates from a mixture of some sort.

Jean Chretien and Joe Clark were both included because of their unwavering determination to keep this nation united, which despite their contentalist economic agendas, can qualify them as being nationalists. As I said before there is no single shared doctrine for nationalists o any country and i wanted to define this article broadly enough to be fair to nationalist Canadians on both sides of the political spectrum. The funny thing about this nation is that like South Africa or say the United States we are a nation brought together by diverse regions and people, but we have shared customs and a shared history. When you ask people in this land what there nationality is, you will never find an "Albertan" or "Ontarian" or "Manitoban", only Canadians. A few hyphanted nationalities of course due to multiculturalism, however still Canadians. the only exception is with Quebec, but even there the majority of Quebeckers consider themselves Canadians.

About Trudeau, no he was not an ideological nationalist like Sir John A. Macdonald, Borden, or Diefenbaker. But he did embark, intentionally or not on the most nationalistic agenda of any Prime Minister since Sir John himself. Most Canadians today duje to his fierce economic nationalist, the FIRA, the withdrawal from NATO, the talk of republicanism and the constant assertments of national soveregnty consider him to be a nationalist regardless of what his philosophical arguments where on the subject. Technically he opposed nationalism in it's strictest forms, but his agenda was far from being anything but. Why else today is he such a hero in nationalist circles????

again with the POV tags?

you know, I'm censored sick and tired of stumbling across these articles with POV/Neutrality tags on them, and the only comment is "not good enough" QUOTE THE SENTANCES YOU DONT LIKE. well now that I'm here I may as damn well do something, because it seems like I'm the only canadian on this entire encylopedia who gives 2 craps.

here are the revisions I'd do, if no one says they are no good within a few days, I'll do them, and remove the tag.

"Most Canadian nationalists today are closer to the mainstream left and oppose the Americanization of Canadian culture" replace "canadian culture with Canada" some people oppose it economically too.

the ENTIRE section on "1 Cultural nationalism in Canada" is not needed. it says NOTHING about the nationalism, and EVERYTHING about culture. If you want to write about Canadian Culture do so here only the last paragraph is of any use IMO.

"Because of the First Past the Post electoral system used by Canada, the vote splitting between the Liberals and NDP, and the regional support of Quebec nationalists and western neo-conservatives," be deleted as its nothing more then pro-electoral reform propoganda.

"David Orchard, who ran for the leadership of the Progressive Conservative Party twice, placing a good second behind Joe Clark" who says it was a "good" second. the word good be deleted.

"Orchard, along with other famous Tories like former Prime Minister Joe Clark and former cabinet minister and human rights activist Flora Macdonald, opposed the merger of the Progressive Conservative Party with the conservative Canadian Alliance party. However, in 2003, the merger went ahead after a vote was held in both parties. This left many Red Tories, especially those like David Orchard who oppose free trade, not sure of where to go. However, recently, David Orchard and his followers gave some hints of possible intentions to be involved with the new Conservative Party and to push their anti-free trade, nationalistic agenda in the new party." un-needed. anti-merger propoganda.

the "list" of nationalists is highly subjective, and should be deleted in it's entirity. any "list" should not be a "list" and should instead come from passing mention of people and orginizations in the rest of the article.

the third section needs to be moved to become the new first section.

I apoligise for yelling at the start of this, I did not realize how increadabally badly written this article actually was. Pellaken 02:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

last chance to stop me from doing what I've outlined above Pellaken 20:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Opposition

It is not worth noting that people can be defined as Nationalist for different reasons, depending on what they oppose?

There are the economic nationalists who opposed Free Trade (often on the Left, but also Red Tories on the Right).

There are old-fashioned cultural nationalists (in other countries called nativist) who oppose multiculturalism, and favour a promotion of Anglo-Saxon culture like Don Cherry and the Christian Right. Because the US is also English-speaking and Christian they are often as not friendly to the US, but this does not make them any less nationalistic. In the UK or Aus. there are many on the far- and centre-Right who are nationalists of this kind like the British National Party. I think Canada’s equivalent deserves mention.

There are centralising federalists who oppose Québec separatism and other regionalism. This would include Trudeau, Chrétien, et all.

There are new-fashioned cultural nationalists who support the CBC and CRTC and CanCon regulations to stop American cultural influence.

We should also note the sometimes anti-Canadian (or at least anti-federal) forms of nationalism at work in Canada, Québec Nationalism, and Native Nationalism.

As well the nationalism of ethnic minorities, and it’s relationship with the policy of multiculturalism. Some people define their love of Canada not by an identification with it’s native culture, but by the freedom it provides to live with their own traditional culture. Kevlar67 23:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Flag picture

Its ripped, and should be changed.--Meanie 01:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I exchanged the photo for a similar (not ripped) photo of the flag from Wiki Commons, which looks much improved--France3470 06:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Paul Kellogg and Dave McNally who are referred to in the section on critics of nationalism are **not** the people to which their names are linked, so these links should be removed.05:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)~

Suggested background / history

In the 19th and early 20th Centuries, Canada a place with three rivals nationalism: British nationalism or Imperialism; Continentalism; and Canadian Independence or Pan-Canadianism.

Imperialism (in the Canadian context) was a political position advocating for loyalty to the Crown, Anglo-Saxon culture, and strong ties with Great Britain and the Empire, either for their own sake or becaue British power was needed to protect Canada's independence from the United States. It was position the Conservative party from Macdonald to Diefenbaker. Many imperialist supported the notion of Imperial Federation.

Continentalists argued for closer ties to the United States, especially economic, as a way to lessen Canada's ties to Britain. The theory was that Canada would always be treated as a colony by Britain unless Canada had American help. This position had supporters in the Liberal party, but was never fully implemented. An extreme offshoot of continentalism was annexationism which wanted Canada to be absorbed by the United States.

The third strain of Canadian nationalism argued for Canadian independence from both Canada and the United States. Variations on this position were articulated by Henri Bourassa in Quebec and Edward Blake in Ontario, however English Canada as a whole was still very wedded to imperialism, while Quebec was not. This made for a difficult balancing act for Laurier, for example when deciding on Canada's involvement in the Boer War or the creation of the Canadian Navy.

What we think of as modern English Canadian nationalism evolved from all of these strands, but especially the third. Various dates have been offered as to when imperialism went out of fashion but it was a gradual process that may have started as early as the Alaska boundary dispute (1896-1903) and not finished until after the Suez Crisis (1956). Continetialism never went out of style but did change parties. Since the era of Mulroney the right (both Reform and Tory) has been continetalist while the Liberals under Turner became hardened nationalists.

Meanwhile after 1960 Quebec devolped its own seperate sense of nationhood which replaced the former pan-Canadianism of that province. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevlar67 (talk • contribs) 02:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thomas D'Arcy McGee

Where is Thomas D'Arcy McGee, commonly referred to as Canada's first Nationalist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.254.145 (talk) 05:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"Northern Identity" Nationalism

Carl Berger has written about early nationalistic formulations of Canadian identity which seems very relevant to this article in "The True North Strong and Free" (found in the book Interpreting Canada's Past (Volume II) edited by JM Bumstead.)

The formulation entails that the northern climate makes Canadians a hardy and strong people. It was apparently even extended to imply that democracy is a northern concept. It seems quite relevant to this Wikipedia article, which not once mentions the word "north".

It can be found here: http://books.google.ca/books?id=nlaMbSkgwL4C&lpg=PA83&dq=carl%20berger%20%22the%20true%20north%20strong%20and%20free%22&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q=carl%20berger%20%22the%20true%20north%20strong%20and%20free%22&f=false A.Roz (talk) 19:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

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