Talk:Anne Catherine Emmerich

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Older comments[edit]

This article is in desparate need of wikification. There are a number of glaring POV statements and claims that will need to be addressed here as well. I seem to remember a better article being up about six months ago, but there seems to be only one version in the history, so I'm unsure what happened. Please someone have a go at this, I lack the time. --FM 06:17, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I just (19th Jan '06) removed the following statement:

"Catholic Tradition states that she foresaw the downfall of Napoleon twelve years in advance, and that she counseled in a mysterious way the successor of St. Peter."

I have no idea to what event (or alleged event) in the life of Blessed Anne that refers but it is obviously false. There is no such thing as "Catholic tradition" in any sense that could be relevant to that statement. "Tradition" (without the adjective) is cited in Catholic theology as an authoritative source for doctrine. It has nothing to do with modern biography. To cite "Catholic tradition" as an authority in the biography of someone who was born in 1774 is to display ignorance. Pious gossip would be a more accurate term hence I removed the sentence. As for the second half I can only ask how? what? when?

I have added this comment to the talk page just in case some pious soul stumbles across this article and decides to revert. Don't. With any luck it will get subsumed in other edits soon. Lord knows this page needs it.Stroika 12:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Piety aside, it also needs some independent references, so I'm off to chase up an English language bibliographic record of her book to anchor the account. Some critical bibliographical references might also be useful for NPOV requirements. As she was one of the principal influences behind Passion of the Christ, one assumes that volumes about that film would incorporate critiques of her account of the passion. User Calibanu 15:45, 16 May 2006

Okay, bibliography complete. I've also made comments about anti-Semitism in the course of the article. Will regularly update when I obtain access to other critical scholarship about Passion of the Christ pertinent to Emmerich.

User Calibanu: 13:31, 19 May 2006

antisemitism controversies[edit]

I am shocked by the lack of sense, the free running pov almost bloglike in this article. Anne Catherine deserves better for sure. The amount of nonsense and subtly marked suggestions regarding pseudo antisemitism is just sad.--BBird 21:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Might I inquire how citing mainstream church documents about how orthodox Catholics (as opposed to traditionalists) perceive the work of Emmerich represents a 'free running pov,' or other such nonsense? Surely the Papacy and hierarchy represent a touchstone for formation of Catholic opinion and ethical judgement?
User Calibanu: 09:15, 26 May 2006.
Morrover, it is not 'pseudo' antisemitism to note that Emmerich herself held antisemitic views, and her own biography is cited to reflect her views. These views need to be placed in context. The previous version of this entry was a hagiography. A hagiography is not a NPOV, while other sources of documentation and discussion have been cited within the revised text. Why should we neglect contemporary scholarship about Emmerich and her contemporary reception, and culpability for her clear anti-Semitic statements?
User Calibanu 09:34. 26 May 2006

Sorry -- I read the book (passion). its touching, realistic. I always read the refs to Jews (along with Romans) as just showing how men with power can behave in bad ways. Anyway, she lived 150 years ago!! to insist that her wording is not politically correct by today's standards is just stupid. context please. --BBird 21:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

November 2006[edit]

I am not sure of the fine points of the Wiki POV policy; most rational people would conclude that Ms Emmerich was simply a whackjob, and that the "strict" examinations she underwent were, to put it mildly, probably not up to modern levels of "strictness" when it comes to proving supernatural powers. Joel Johnson November 27 2006

The purpose of this article is neither to extol her spiritual insights, nor to dump on her because she held views which would be unpopular today. If you have some factual and documented information relevant to this article, bring it forward. AnonMoos 02:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion by Smith2006[edit]

Can Smith justify here his action in reverting instead of responding to the requests for sources to support his (wishful thinking?) contention that there exists a work by Anne Catherine Emmerich, written down by Brentano, entitled Visions for the Church and describing the future of the Roman Catholic Church in the near-apocalyptic terms he attributes to it? Lima 14:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

I have removed the following material:

However, any discussion of how some paragraphs in the Dolorous Passion can be read to attribute supernatural motivation for Jewish antagonism toward Christ during the crucifixion, and allegations that this antipathy has intrinsic demonic grounds that pervade their very beings, can only relate to the words used by Brentano to write the text in German and not to the words originally spoken in the Westphalian dialect by Emmerich.

This material constitutes original research and is therefore in violation of Wikipedia policy. If History2007 wants to include a claim that Brentano's German translation is somehow unfaithful to Emmerich's "Westphalian dialect," then he needs to cite a reliable source. He may not simply assert this based on his own beliefs. There are reliable sources saying that Gibson used Emmerich as a source and that Emmerich has been criticized by many for anti-Semitism. The above section seems like a clumsy attempt to hand-wave this away, as is the parenthetical addition of "(fair or unfair)" which seems to belittle the sourced criticisms.

History2007 also persists on removing weasel word templates, despite the fact that weasel words are clearly present in this section. 76.97.163.77 05:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I found an article here which I think discusses what History2007 was getting at. I've reinserted the claim using more appropriate wording. 76.97.163.77 05:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

beatified[edit]

what is the definition of beatified? 98.195.185.125 (talk) 05:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Between being declared "Venerable" and being declared a saint... AnonMoos (talk) 23:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's hardly a definition. See beatification. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio[edit]

Just noticed plenty of copyvio from EWTN in the bio section - needs reformulation/rewording. Vatican bio will be a good source. History2007 (talk) 23:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When I went to fix it, I realized that the EWTN text comes directly from the Catholic encyclopedia, which is public domain. So there is no copyvio. History2007 (talk) 15:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Poorly sourced material to be removed[edit]

I see that there are serious allegations in the article that have absolutely no cited source to back them up: allegations of theological errors, an alleged analysis by a priest, and an alleged acceptance of these facts by the Vatican. The alleged source is a citation to Emmerich's own writings, and I cannot see how she prophesied these things, so they're out until they can be backed up by something reliable and published. Elizium23 (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I double checked the maps and travel books items found in Brentano's office and America Magazine includes that for sure, so I restored that part. I think we need to look for other sources before using any other material. History2007 (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for catching that, I had not intended to delete that as I had read the America article as well, but I guess I saw the whole paragraph with "ref name=Anvil" at the end and zorched it. Elizium23 (talk) 21:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I had looked into that, and I was really surprised to read that Brentano had played games. I had always thought he used to take notes there, but it seems that he would go back to his own place and then write things long after the fact... He was a poet after all I guess. History2007 (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Prophecies about two popes[edit]

I found this in the New York Times "Some conservative Catholics [...] cite the German mystic Anne Catherine Emmerich, who wrote of a “relationship between two popes,” one who “lives in a palace other than before,” which some now see as a reference to Benedict, who resigned as pope early this year but still lives in Vatican City. During this time there arises a “false church of darkness.”" Have these thoughts been reported elsewhere? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That words are everywhere, just look for "relationship between two popes" on google. However, nobody cites a printed source.

Emmerich[edit]

The surname: 'Emmerich' of the blessed Anne Catherine, stands for the place of origin of her male parent: 'Emmerich', if similar surnames can be found elsewhere, as in the French Midi: 'Aymerich', it have the only connection of the suffix: -ich, coming from the Latin genitive: -ici, but as: 'Aimery', is a first name still used in France today, it could be compared to elements as the surname: 'Sorensen', meaning: 'from Soren', a Northeren European first name, or: 'Fernandez', in Spain, meaning: 'born from Fernando', it may mean just that the birthplace of her parent was under Roman control for a while.

About the controversies around the text allegedly written by Brentano upon Anne Catherine speech, besides what could be literature from this poet, the main problem may be that because of the extent, and the theological detail about the subjects handled in text, it's something like a: 'second Bible', that may be interpreted in some ways that differ from previous priesthood's agreements.

It's highly peculiar that in her own life rememberances, Anne Catherine told Brentano having received the visit of a child while she was sick, the kid indicating the plants that she should take to heal, and among it, the juice from Morning Glory flowers, that even when more than 2000 species of it exist, is known to contain LSA, a soft hallucinogen, chemically connected to LSD, but weaker, in that it usually induces just: 'Phosphenes': 'See stars'. This compound, LSA, from Rye, along with others, was said being in the composition of the: 'Kíkeon', the drink in the: 'Eleusys Mysteries', that may be those referred as: 'The enemy's mysteries', in the Apocalypse of saint John.

I'm just in the reading of a fourth volume in a series of ten including the visions and revelations to Anne Catherine, but I'm astonished about the dimension of the texts, compiled by Brentano, who Anne Catherine gives the nickname: 'The pilgrim', that was used also by Ignatius of Loyola to describe himself in a short auto-biography, dictated to a Portuguese monk, Luis Gonçalves da Camara. Comments? Thanks, regards, + Salut--Caula (talk) 18:14, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to Brentano, she claimed in the Moon zones visible by Libration, creeks, woods and animals exist, this remarked by Brentano as an important issue, but the rest of descriptions supposedly she made about the Moon match our current sights. The Brentano compilation indicates good feelings by Anna Catherina about the Mithra cult, a solar cult described also by Rudyard Kipling, close to the Beth-El cult in the OT, sometimes considered a pagan cult. Brentano claims she indicated Judas Iscariot thought when denouncing the place were Christ met with His disciples to pray, that He will escape same as when people in His hometown attempted launching Him down a gully, and some other comments in opposition to theologians' acknowledged interpretations; many times when describing a revelation she had, Brentano records: 'About this, I can't remember', 'About this, I can't talk'. Comments about the holy women and other events and places of the Jesus times sound many times as 'bit and pieces', lacking any religious value, the tale about Jesus visiting Crete and other about travelling to the Magi place sound purely phantastic. Perhaps someone knowing the Anna German dialect, the German of the time of Brentano, and willing to reconstruct what the original speech from Anna Catherina could have been may help. The revelations to saint Mectildis, in the group of saint Hildegard von Bingen are much more restricted to the religious realm. Salut +

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Too hagiographical[edit]

Can we try and be a bit more rigorous in this article please. I don't like the way that it seems to imply that miracles and visions etc are possible. Fraud and deception hangs heavy behind the case of Anne Emmerich. This is not a hagiography but a secular encyclopaedia and we live in a supposedly enlightened age. Contaldo80 (talk) 10:46, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your revert introduced many WP:NPOV problems. Perhaps we should work on solving those too. Please read WP:CLAIM. Elizium23 (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Great to see you here on this article too Elizium23. What a coincidence! Or may not if you insist on stalking me to revert and amend all my edits. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:49, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:NPA Elizium23 (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I read it. And you've persisted in stalking me around various articles to amend or delete my edits. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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