Talk:Lada

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Intro[edit]

Why is the introduction to this article so long? Additionally, why does the introduction state that Lada has maintained its sales? I believe this to be patently untrue. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7979391.stm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spigot007 (talk • contribs) 08:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing Lada sales with total car sales. Russia is one of the world's fastest growing car markets. Nona 2al kelmetto w tamet yaged3an kosomen wiki share of the domestic market has fallen recently due to big increases in many other car brands either built in Russia (Russia apparently now makes more cars then Germany as of Dec 08) or being imported. Although their % share of the market is down, Lada sales have remained stable over the same period (it's just that they now share the market with many other brands that weren't there before).

Why is this article only about Lada cars in the UK?

I think this article nees lots of work or a direct transfer to the AutoVAZ article.

"Russia apparently now makes more cars then Germany as of Dec 08" - Where did you get this information? Every single source I can find contradicts this categorically. This link offers 2006 figures, but for Russia to have the level of production you claim, production would have had to increase 500% in two years! This is highly improbable. http://www.worldometers.info/cars/
The wikipedia article on the Automotive industry lists Russia at the world's 13th largest auto producer in 2007, behind even Mexico, Spain, India, the UK, etc. ... Udibi (talk) 19:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the person meant car market not car maker as Russia was still impoting most of its cars. See text below from http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/06/05/car_sector_stalls_foreigners_still_investing.html "And as a middle class emerges with access to consumer credit, Russia managed to briefly overtake Germany to become Europe’s biggest car market in the summer of 2008, selling 1.65 million units in the first half of the year, against Germany’s 1.6 million units". Maxzden Jun 28, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxzden (talk • contribs) 21:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lada was a brand name given to an export-specification range of Russian built cars. A discussion of Lada is essentially a discussion of Russian auto export. Sure, the article could be expanded with reference to markets other than the UK, but the UK experience was pretty typical. I think it is an interesting story even if it is limited in scope at present. BobBScar23625 11:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell the "Riva" was also being sold unter a different name - at least in Eastern Germany it was called "Nova senior" (2107) and "Nova junior" (2105). Misel 01:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that Ladas are manufactured in Tolyatti. Quite true, but the city was named after Palmiro Togliatti, the leader of the Italian Communist Party 1927-1964. Backwards transliteration is not always a good idea! SirteP (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Geneva Motor Show 2006[edit]

Twisp. You have added the image "Lada 2101". Is this a spoof?. Bob

ps I guess this may be in the vintage car section. Sorry to have doubted you. It looks like an early Lada from circa 1972. Bob BScar23625 17:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lada Niva history[edit]

Lada Niva was never supposed to be an army-vehicle. From the very beginning it was planned to be built as an all-wheel drive vehicle combining comfort of an ordinary motorcar with advantages of a utilitarian off-roader. Later VAZ designed a military amphibian car using Niva underpinnings (this amphibian modification was designated VAZ-2122), but it was never produced - just a few prototypes are known to exist.

Picture caption - Lada or Vaz?[edit]

File:Lada-logo.jpg
Lada?

Papushin

You write :

VAZ 2101 was never exported therefore it was never called Lada

and have altered the title on the picture accordingly. How do you explain the fact that the car in the picture has a Lada badge on its front?.

Bob

BScar23625 14:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Badge on the grill is red "boat" which is "Zhiguli" original badge. 2101 (original Fiat) and 2102 (wagon variation) haven't been exported. The rumor is that FIAT didn't want "Zhiguli" compete with FIATs therefore there was a clause in contract prohibiting exporting. I'm not sure how true it is. Papushin 02:30, 30 April 2006 (UT
BTW, Original 2101 was in production since 1970 (not 1972). I don't remember any specific difference between 1972 and 1970 cars. They were called "Itallian assembly" in Russia and were considered to be of high quality, same cars built later were supposedly worse. With introduction of new models some people still preferred original 2101 (or "kopeika" as it was called in Russia). A modification of 21011 model called 21013 was pretty much original 2101 minus form of bumpers and back light assembly. It remained one of the most popular models in 1980s. I grew up with 2101, my granddad's one was 2 years older than me. Papushin 02:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Papushin. OK, it sounds as if you know what you are talking about. But the car in the picture looks exactly like an early Lada. The main heading to the picture still describes it as a Lada. If you are sure it is not a Lada then perhaps you should remove the picture?. Bob BScar23625 05:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I got where you're heading... It is a car produced by AutoVAZ. Official designation of the model is VAZ 2101. This car was called "Zhiguli" in Russia. Brand Lada was used only for export until "Sputnik/Samara" VAZ 2108 model which was called only Lada. Therefore calling VAZ 2101 Lada and calling VAZ 2108 (and all Samaras) Zhiguli is incorrect, these combinations were never used.
I like the picture though because it shows original VAZ car, father(mother) of all Ladas. I would just remove the title on top cause it's misleading. Can you folks do it? This picture will be also significant if AutoVAZ and Lada articles are joined because, again, not everything done by VAZ was called Lada.
Bob, do you own Lada dealership or is it just a hobby to collect Ladas? Papushin 14:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Papushin. I am neither a dealer nor a collector. I have owned a number of Lada cars and they all suited my motoring needs well. I found them cheap to run and easy to maintain. Also, they were big, solid cars. Bob BScar23625 16:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, I found another picture of this car on Internet. Looks like AutoVAZ used its own original model on some Motor show (probably Geneva) recently (almost 15 years after car went out of production) and it designated it as Lada 2101, I guess for promotion reasons. I would kill big Lada title anyway and keep VAZ 2101 title for historical purposes. Papushin 14:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Papushin. It looks identical to an early Lada. The manufacturer describes it as a Lada. That is good enough for me. As`far as I am concerned, it is a Lada. Bob BScar23625 16:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Guys, as far as I remember, early Ladas built for foreign markets were designated in the following manner: Lada 1200 (ВАЗ-2101 in USSR market), Lada 1200 Estate (2102), Lada 1500, etc. (by anonymous user)

I saw this one as well but I think it's just "backward" (not official) designation derived from later Lada models. My source says that very first exported model was either 2103 or 2106, both have 2 headlights on each side, so it's very easy to tell them apart from early Zhigulis. Can anyone confirm it? The easiest one is to find 2101, 02 with Lada badge on the back (I doubt they exist though :) ) Papushin 20:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm absolutely sure i've seen the brochures of 2101 and 2102 and even 2103 (quad headlight) for Finnish market. Ant those car were designated as Lada 1200 and Lada 1500. For example, check this link (British brochures from seventies) http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Soviet/Lada/index.htm

This one is a very good link! It shows models known as VAS 2101, VAZ 2102, VAZ 21011, VAZ 2103 as Ladas. I recall all my doubts. I guess the difference in designation existed in different markets or may be in different times. Maybe the easiest will be to keep VAZ model numbers otherwise it may make it very hard to tell one model from another. They all came with the same engines pretty much. I guess this is why they stopped using engine size for model numbers later on.Papushin 12:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Fiat 124 variant WAS exported; It was badged as the Lada 1200. See the "Russian Runabouts" article in one of the Spring issues of Classics Monthly. Dominar_Rygel_XVI (talk) 10:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Article[edit]

I came up with a new article on Automobile model numbering system in USSR and Russia. Now I'm thinking how to better insert a link to it here and in Moskvitch article. Any suggestions? I'm trying to explain where all Russian model numbers come from. Papushin 22:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, so the names: the name of the factory is: VAZ (Volzhsky Avtomobilny Zavod = Volga Auto Plant)

I do not know exactly, but in the very early years it might have been possible that the cars were sold under the VAZ brand name but after that the name of the cars is "Zhighuli". The first machines were exported under this name to the socialist countries. This name is so hard to spell, thats why they used "Lada" in the western markets. After a while this name started to get used in the other markets as well. So the original VAZ 2101 name was "Lada 1200", VAZ 21011 was "Lada 1300", and VAZ 21013 was "Lada 1200s".

The pictures on the main page: the yellow car with "double cirlce lamps" is not a "Lada 1600", but a "Lada 1500". The differences: the radiator grill, the index lamps on th sides, and the bumpers. Although it's not viewable on this page there are other differnces: tail lights, seats, steering wheel, dasboard. Other great problem that the chrome moulding is missing from the car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.226.240.165 (talk • contribs)

Sorry, I was not aware of that. I guess I should have noted down the model numbers when taking the pics. I will change it to Lada 1500. Cheers, Asterion talk to me 18:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am confused now. Check the third pic on this page [1] Asterion talk to me 18:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, ignore that. I am positive that it is a 1500 now. It is a 1978 model with a 1452CC engine indeed. I just did a DVLA search :o) Asterion talk to me 18:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The yellow car is vaz 2103 and it is called jiguli.it has 1451cc engine with 77 h.p. and it is 1972 model.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.222.175.145 (talk • contribs)

Yes, it is a VAZ 1451cc but in the UK it was sold under the brand LADA, using model number 1500, first registered here in 1978. I verified the vehicle record myself in the DVLA database. Regards, E Asterion u talking to me? 23:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I must say (2 previous anonym) that VAZ cars were sold as Ladas EVERYWHERE outside of USSR. So it's rather logical to call them Ladas.

I'm currently driving a 1986 VAZ 2102 (station wagon) in the UK, available since 1974, as was the 2101 (saloon). In 1974 only, they were badged "Zhiguli" in Cyrillic, but from 1975, "Lada" with British-made painted aluminium badges. From about 1976 or 1977, Russian made "Lada" chromed badges appeared. The 2103 became available in 1975 and was discontinued in 1978, when the 2106 was imported in its place. I used to own one of the first British 2106s, but now own one of the last 2103s, which I am restoring. The first 2105 was sold in 1983, the 2107 in 1984 and the 2104 in 1986. 2108/9 "Samara" appeared in 1987 or 1988. The 21099 was available from 1992, I think. E P Hughes (talk) 23:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lada C-Classic[edit]

There was a Lada prototype released into the Geneva 2007 car show, it was called a Lada C-Classic. Why isnt it mentioned in this arcticle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.192.246.56 (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BBC Top Gear Lada[edit]

What about something on the Lotus tuned special for Top Gear that they gave to a viewer. The one that had the black and silver Lotus-Talbot Sunbeam paint job and 2 litre Fiat twin cam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.88 (talk) 23:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Samara 2[edit]

Hi. Regarding the tidbit on the Samara 2, the car is still in production. I took the information about the production years from the Russian wikipedia.--Paffka (talk) 11:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. My understanding has always been that the main Lada plant stopped building Samaras in 2004. Although, it is possible that they are still being built elsewhere. Witness "... recently the only Samaras to be built come from Finland. The original plant is building the new Vega or 2110 and other models."Ciao, 2004! BScar23625 (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC) Bob[reply]

Well, what I can say for sure is that this Samara is still sold in Russia and Ukraine and likely other former USSR countries. Both Ukrainian and Russian official AvtoVAZ sites list it as a current model. Note that I am referring to the post-facelift Samara which is known as the Samara 2 (VAZ 2113, 2114, 2115), not the 2109 in your link.--Paffka (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Paffka. I am sure you know more about it than I do - so please feel free to revise the article accordingly. By the way, what is a 2110 Vega?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 (talk) 08:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad to revise anything I can, lack of time being my only restraint. There's quite a lot of work to be done on this and other Lada-related pages. I'm just a bit baffled why we have to have a Lada and an AvtoVAZ page and not some kind of merge. The Vega is a rarely-used synonym for the VAZ 2110, the Lada 110 name being far more widespread. Can't really say anything more on the subject. As far as I know it was phased out of production recently, upon the introduction of the Priora sedan. Cheers.--Paffka (talk) 11:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Paffka. As regards the distinction between AutoVAZ and Lada, see the discussion right at the head of this page. My understanding is that "Lada" was a marque name applied initially to AutoVAZ export sales, while the same models were sold in the SU under the name Zhiguli. This article is mainly about export sales. However, the name Lada was eventually adopted in Russia. Maybe the AutoVAZ and Lada articles should be merged?. Bob BScar23625 (talk) 18:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea[edit]

I don't believe this entry and can find no evidence for the Lada Cosetor. The origianl contributor seems to have spread several false entries around. Can anyone confirm the existence of this model? Malcolma (talk) 11:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found only one ghit from a russian source diff mentioning the Lada Cosetor but the link doesn't work. The Google description says: Лада Материал из Википедии - свободной энциклопедии года свыше 13.5 million Ladas были badged как "Ривас", (вос-стиле, .... Лада Cosetor была выпущена в Северной Корее, Есть только несколько Cosetor" If this is not a Wikipedia mirror, like the other ghits appear to be, then the Cosetor might have existed but the evidence is very weak. It's a difficult call. Dr.K. (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But from the little Cyrillic that I know I just noticed in the above that "Википедии" means Wikipedia. So this is a mirror after all. I would say get rid of it. It seems bogus and with no WP:RS citations to back it up it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Dr.K. (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Abort the query, guys. The information in question has been inserted by a now-blocked sockpuppet of a known hoaxster. I have just deleted the entire section. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Returning hoaxer -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 18:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why am I not surprised. Thanks for the feedback. Good work. Take care. Dr.K. (talk) 19:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Lada is back to Brazil[edit]

Lada is back to Brazil.The lada niva will be selled again in Brazil, in 2009.See this site: Niva CAOA , in portuguese.Agre22 (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)agre22[reply]

Seating, Steering[edit]

One of the big reasons for Lada's popularity with UK pensioners in the 80s was the seating. The seats were higher than most cars, and the seating position different, and they were much easier to get in and out of then western vehicles.


Steering[edit]

It might be worth mentioning the steering of the Lada Rivas. It did not use rack & pinion, and there was a large amount of backlash. This often frightened people the first time they drove it. IIRC it used a worm & screw mechanism, but I'm not sure what that is. On the plus side the steering was not affected by hitting a kerb, so no veering out of control like rack & pinion steering does in such a situation. 82.31.207.100 (talk) 15:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm not sure what that is". See rack and pinion and worm drive. Pol098 (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WHY?

Can you tell me why I am redirected to this page as to the main meaning of the word "LADA"? Seriously, there are more common meanings of "LADA" in English. And the top meaning is Latent autoimmune diabetes, sad as it is. Liutas4x4 (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lada is well known car brand, Latent autoimmune diabetes is very unknown term... -->Typ932 T·C 05:12, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lada Fizmat[edit]

I didn't find any info on this car... (And it is strange that it should have a 5 liter V6, that is not common) I think it is a hoax (can be found under models-current)Nandee94 (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just vandalism, I deleted it.  Mr.choppers | ✎  08:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism section - lack thereof[edit]

Come on, people. The Lada jokes, the terrible quality. There's no smoke without fire. The article is actually incomplete without some kind of criticism section. The fact that there isn't one leads one to conclude that the article was either written by a satisfied Lada customer (it is possible, one imagines) or (even worse) somebody from the Lada organisation. 86.143.84.199 (talk) 19:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weird British jokes aside, obviously somebody liked Ladas - over 20 million of them were sold, the most popular model of any car ever made. Sure, it didn't appeal to everyone, but with a service life of 500,000km, it's no wonder it sold well. Santamoly (talk) 06:59, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Weren't most of these sales in the Eastern Bloc or Third World? 175.39.6.131 (talk) 02:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Santamoly wrote "obviously somebody liked Ladas - over 20 million of them were sold". As others have mentioned, that was almost entirely due to the fact that there was a captive market for them, as no foreign-made autos were allowed to be imported into the Soviet Union, and Lada was the main manufacturer of small passenger vehicles in the USSR. And while 20 million might sound like a lot, that's spread over the course of 42 years -- less than a half-million cars per year. Toyota and Volkswagen each sell 10 million cars per year, and they have to compete with dozens of rivals. So the 20 million number in no way correlates to Ladas being "liked", much less being decent cars. The article needs a "criticism" or "reputation" section to reflect these facts. Bricology (talk) 18:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come now, let's not get too carried away! The basic Lada Riva was made in several countries and sold all over the world for decades, except for the USA where it ran into a typical American import ban (along with bans on Chinese & Indian cars, and small pickup trucks from anywhere in the world). Lada Rivas are still made in Egypt for export throughout Africa. Lada Rivas were always popular as taxis since they were cheap and easy to repair. Americans can see vintage Lada ex-taxis in Jamaica, Canada, and Cuba. Lada regularly competes in the World Touring Car Championship races around the world, and new Ladas are sold everywhere in Europe. Lada facts are easily found in WP - you don't have to make up stuff. Santamoly (talk) 03:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In fact Ladas were exported to over 90 countries in the 1980s, with 3/5 of production earmarked for export and most of that went to western countries, primarily markets such as Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium etc. They were also sold in countries such as Canada, numerous countries in SE Asia, the Middle East/Africa (the standard taxi model in Cairo for many years was the Lada classic and Peugeot 504) and throughout South America. Claims that Lada had a captive audience are clearly incorrect (maxzden).

When I read this article, my feeling was that it lacked some criticism. My impression is that there is widespread belief, in North America, that they were a cheap ugly car. The article says they were replaced in North America by cheap South Korean cars, which seem aburd because it implies the Korean cars were just cheaper. South Korean cars are great cars. BashBrannigan (talk) 05:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Airbags / SRS?[edit]

What models of the Lada have airbags and when were they introduced? Which models have driver-only airbags, and both driver/passenger airbags? -- DMahalko (talk) 02:22, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All current models of Lada have airbags, for example, the Lada XRAY, and all appear to have Euro-spec airbags for at least the last 20 years, for example the Lada Kalina. For the non-believers, both are listed in WP, plus all the other Lada models. Santamoly (talk) 02:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lada in New Zealand[edit]

Lada cars and some 4x4 were sold in NZ in the 1970s for a brief period of about 3 years. A NZ dairy company sold millions of dollars of their products to Russia and the Russians refused to pay. Instead they said they would provide Lada cars as payment . The cars were imported by the dairy company and sold throughout NZ. It did not take long before customers realized that Ladas are an extremely poorly made and finished car.They broke down, they leaked, bits fell off.They became a by word for low quality. Some farmers found the 4 x 4 to be a better deal as it was so cheap and they were not worried about minor leaks, poor paint or finishing. They are generally considered to be the worst car by a long way, ever imported into NZ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.198.190 (talk) 07:36, 18 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Ladas were imported into NZ from 1976 until the late 1990s and the Lada classic models (2103, 2015, 2107) proved very popular. Mine covered over 225,0000 mls with ease (over 26 years) and I only abandoned it when it was written off in an accident. There were certainly issues with quality control in the three years following the break-up of the Soviet Union (during which time Lada continued production under strained industrial circumstances and shortages of basic materials) but the quality improved to pre-break-up levels thereafter. As far as overall quality, Lada cars and 4-wd do very well in online owner surveys (other than those made from the time period mentioned). (Maxzden).

Undiscussed page move[edit]

The page was recently moved without discussion in violation of WP:COMMONNAME. The move was reverted via a request at WP:RM. In future, please open a formal page move request on this talkpage. Dr. K. 19:28, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 July 2017[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved; consensus is clearly against the proposed move. bd2412 T 21:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lada → Export of AvtoVAZ vehicles – Move to reflect the article's actual content - going by the title it's supposed to be about the Lada brand, but it's actually about exports. It previously included a short list of Lada vehicles that replicated similar content in the AvtoVAZ article and is now part of List of AvtoVAZ vehicles - nothing specific about the brand beyond the lede. Readers interested in knowing more about the Lada brand and the history of the plant that makes them should be directed to the AvtoVAZ article, because they would not find them here. If the WP:COMMONNAME is Lada, the other article should be renamed, forking content across two articles isn't a solution. eh bien mon prince (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. The WP:COMMONNAME of these vehicles is Lada. The article may benefit from additional information about the brand, but this is not a reason to rename it. Also, if more material exists in other articles or forks, it can be merged to this article. But Lada is a brand name with wide recognition. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it should not be suppressed. Dr. K. 20:13, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The article as it stands is not about the Lada brand at all. If the name should be maintained, it would make much more sense to rename the AvtoVAZ article rather than rewrite this one.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, AvtoVAZ, as the name of the factory, should remain, because it is known by that name as a car manufacturer. Dr. K. 21:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as a step in good direction, and redirect Lada to AvtoVAZ for the time being (maybe that should be reversed, but that's an issue for another RM). The current setup is confusing, and the content does not justify the title indeed. Maybe there's a better title available (Lada in international markets, perhaps?), but anything is better than this. No such user (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – The article is about the "Lada" brand and its history, while AvtoVAZ is the industrial name unknown to consumers. Accordingly, the AvtoVAZ article should focus on the manufacturing and business structure of the company, while Lada can remain focused on the brand, models and markets. This requires just a little bit of appropriate transfer of contents between the articles as they stand. — JFG talk 10:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per JFG. It is unthinkable that we would not have an article on Lada, one of the iconic car brands of the Soviet Union, as seen from the rest of the world.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:06, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Parissien, Life of the Automobile[edit]

A book source (ISBN 978-1-25-004063-3) was removed as "non-professional". Frankly, I would think that any book sources would be welcome, given the current state of the article. Can someone explain why this source is unreliable? See reviews in The New York Times, The Guardian, and The Wall Street Journal. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:11, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because despite the advertisement in newspapers it is actually crawling with factual errors, willful or not, as dozens of his readers have already pointed out. Here is a review: "After a 52-year career as a motoring writer, during which time I've read hundreds (probably thousands) of motoring books, I believe none has approached the litany of factual errors on display in Parissien's book. I quickly realised that I should keep a pen handy while reading the book in order to mark the errors (I'm currently up to page 272). It is clear that Mr Parissien has no innate knowledge of the motor industry or the people involved. It is also quite obvious that Thomas Dunne Books did not employ any fact checker. Many of the obvious errors have already been noted by other reviewers so the e is no need for me to duplicate this list. Most disappointing."
Another one: "The Life Of The Automobile by Steven Parissien is so bad that it is difficult to know where to begin discussing its manifold failures. Despite a clueless New York Times reviewer’s opinion that the author’s knowledge is “encyclopedic,” the printed page proves otherwise. Whether the egregious factual errors are a consequence of Parissien’s ignorance or of his laziness in fact checking is open to question, but they speak for themselves, making The Life Of The Automobile¬—to use one of the author’s way too frequently deployed modifiers—“astonishingly” poor, sloppy, and almost completely unreliable as a source."
I believe that those who decided to write or improve an article should know enough about the subject of their writings and carefully check their sources to avoid awkward situations like this. Andy Thompson (Cars of the Soviet Union, 2008; Cars of Eastern Europe, 2011), for example, is a far more accurate, serious and detailed source and has spent a lot of time studying Eastern bloc cars and their history in great detail; needless to say, his views are completely different from those of Parissien (e.g., Cars of the Soviet Union: "Sales of the new car in export markets were extremely successful, building on Lada's reputation as a maker of solid, unpretentious and reliable cars for motorists who wanted to drive on a budget. Lada introduced the new car to Canada, building on its entry to that market in 1978 with the VAZ 21061, sold as the Lada 1500. lt was also popular in Finland and Holland. lndeed, the new Lada range won converts right across both Eastern and Western Europe, Cuba where it was a popular choice for taxi work and as far away as New Zealand"). SlavonicStudies (talk) 16:35, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When determining reliability, we don't usually go by customer reviews, especially cherry-picked ones. It goes without saying that Amazon reviewers don't employ "fact-checkers" either. Feel free to add additional reliable sources to this article, but I'm not convinced that Parissien is as unreliable as these irate Amazon users claim. It's true that I'm no car expert, so I've started a discussion at WP:RS/N to assess the reliability of this source. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course we don't. However, page after page, a large number of readers have demonstrated in detail that the book does contain countless erroneous statements and inaccuracies which can be easily found and "fact-checked" with the help of reliable, published works. And you can find those reviewers listing those numerous errors there, dozens of them. And that, I believe, should not be ignored. SlavonicStudies (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lada (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Public reception abroad[edit]

Some information about the early Ladas gaining an affectionate following despite being "a byword for ugliness" according to one author was recently removed (diff) because the author's "private opinion" is evidently not encyclopedic. Of course, it's the author's published opinion, so it's not exactly private, but in any case, this seems to be a pretty mainstream view. Peter Hamilton calls the car "the definitive backstop of the motoring hierarchy". The Telegraph calls it "ungainly and awkward". Another business writer calls it "poorly-built". Then there are all the jokes. And that's from just a brief search.

Whether "the early Ladas had almost the same appearance as their Fiat analogues and Fiat also worked on their design" as stated (diff) is a non-sequitur. If reliable, published authors call the cars ugly and poorly-built, then that's what we say, following the policy of due weight. Wiki editors' personal interpretations and analyses don't belong. I'd suggest restoring some kind of info about the actual public reception to the cars, based on such publshed sources. Any suggestions are welcome. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What an encyclopedic article should be based on is general, unquestionable and accurate information that the reader will find helpful, not dubious opinions of private persons, even if those opinions were published in print format. Personal POVs are not undeniable, encyclopedic facts and may be or are based on poor knowledge, stereotypes or personal aesthetic preferences. While one person may believe that a car is somehow "ugly", other sources, credible authors and millions of car owners have a different opinion on this matter. We can't prefer a few biased opinions over the rest and get involved in POV-pushing. Besides, Parissien is not an expert in this field of knowledge and many of his claims, as many others, are dubious at best. That said, I would like to remind you that the page is about the existing brand which includes numerous completely different automobiles with different design. SlavonicStudies (talk) 10:46, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...general, unquestionable and accurate information that the reader will find helpful – actually, Wikipedia articles are based on published, reliable sources. This is long-standing practice as reflected in Wikipedia's core content policies. Nothing is "unquestionable"; Wikipedia does not take a stand on what is true, but rather represents the views of mainstream, published authors according to their prominence. Merely being true or even helpful does not make something encyclopedic.
Other sources, credible authors and millions of car owners have a different opinion. We can't prefer a few biased opinions over the rest – feel free to suggest reliable, published sources that provide a balanced overview of the issue, or even a contrary viewpoint. As of now the article lacks any such sources.
Parissien is not an expert in this field of knowledge and many of his claims, as many others, are dubious at best – reviewers in several major newspapers don't seem to think so. See above talk page section § Parissien, Life of the Automobile.
The page is about the existing brand which includes numerous completely different automobiles – the edit in question was in the "History" section, pretty clearly referring to early Lada models. Feel free to suggest a presentation that would make this clearer.
One other point: articles should be based mainly on independent sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A work published by the automaker itself is not independent of the subject, and therefore probably not reliable for significant claims, not to mention prone to giving undue weight to minor details and trivia that are inappropriate for a general encyclopedia. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 11:55, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia articles are usually based on solid and accurate sources, indeed, and a newspaper journalist praising some book doesn't turn every claim or opinion, let alone a subjective opinion or an absurd claim, from that book into highly important and reliable encyclopedic content that must be necessarily pushed here and added to the article; otherwise WP pages will become flooded with tons of completely unnecessary, dubious, misleading, purely subjective opinions, mistakes and inaccuracies of every single person who received praise in the media, opinions that might be misleading, of little value and aren't normally included into encyclopedias. That's a dangerous and very literal interpretation of the rules. Not to mention that the book by Parissien is full of obvious and sometimes shocking errors and inaccuracies not found in mainstream sources (see my comment above); he is clearly not an expert in Eastern bloc cars. The work that I have provided is a massive edition created by a huge team of former and current car engineers and other experts, based on archive documents and first-hand evidence, i. e. respected primary sources, and is widely used by journalists in the former USSR, such as those from the Za Rulyom magazine, being the main work on the early years of the company. What you have regarded as "significant claims" was nothing but a short list of well-known facts that are actually the same in all works regarding this subject; they are not based on opinions. And lastly, I'd like to notice that rude attempts to push POV and blame others for having "affection for cars despite ugliness" (!?) are comlpetely inappropriate. SlavonicStudies (talk) 13:38, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are two different issues being conflated here and under the heading § Parissien, Life of the Automobile above. First, whether the book is accurate, and second, whether Parissien's opinion counts. I'm not an expert on Lada cars, so I have no idea whether the book is accurate. No specific factual errors with respect to Ladas have been brought up so far. As to Parissien's estimation of the cars' appeal, that's a question of whether it represents a mainstream opinion. So far no reliable, published sources have been put forward that contradict Parissien's view. Feel free to suggest them.
As to well-known facts that are actually the same in all works regarding this subject, it should therefore be easy to cite some third-party sources for these facts, so we don't have to rely on the company's own presentation, which can be biased even if all the individual statements are factual.
Finally, I have not "blamed" anyone for having affection for Lada cars. That is the view of the published source that I cited in the article (diff). That much should be obvious. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. However, it would be great to find reliable, published sources that somehow support his opinion and prove that the cars were indeed seen as a "byword for ugliness", at least by a more or less significant number of people. Otherwise we're getting caught into a well-known trap, when an editor has to counter a dubious or obviously wrong claim that is neither supported by anything nor denied (or even shared) by anyone, because others have never heard about it. And I have no idea what "bias" may be there in the books published in Tolyatti, especially if the only information taken from that source is about the company's early chronology. Apparently, the factory and their veteran employees do know when the company was founded and started production. That is not a POV. Not to mention that this information is nothing new and is present in other sources. SlavonicStudies (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, it should be just as easy to cite those other sources. Feel free to suggest some. Bias in company publications at the least concerns minor or trivial aspects that are not supported by independent sources, and possibly self-serving claims. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but this is definitely not the case, because it is nothing more than a brief chronology that is free from POV and apparently has no "self-serving claims".
I've just made some further changes to the article. I'm removing another sentence from Parissien, for his credibility is under question (besides, Lada was just an export name for Zhiguli, as is clearly told in the article; the same car that rolled off the same assembly line) and the joke. Perhaps it is enough to mention the jokes without telling them here. SlavonicStudies (talk) 00:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your efforts to improve the article. However, please note that statements such as "In the West, the reception of the cars was mixed" must be directly supported by reliable, published sources; this looks instead like improper synthesis. It implies a similarity in the relative weight of the authors in question and/or their views that may not be accurate. The article already has a lot of unsourced material that looks like original research; we shouldn't be adding more. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:56, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Solved that issue. SlavonicStudies (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 11:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now the page about a car brand is left without any logo at all. This should be improved as soon as possible, I believe. 219.121.137.70 (talk) 08:45, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Просто вопрос.[edit]

Передняя "подвеска" такая же какие "стойки" самолётов или таки нет?

.. всё так глухо ..

176.59.194.139 (talk) 13:05, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'Models' is only recently released models[edit]

The history has the older models, and the 'models' section is newer vehicles. It's confusing to open the models section and not find the older vehicles. And the 'history' section has information about the newer vehicles as well.

Suggestion:

- Merge the history and models into one section OR - Rename "models" to "recent models" YeshuaAdoni (talk) 10:44, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Draft in german Wikipedia[edit]

See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:ARDITGILA/Lada_(Automobilmarke) there are known problems concerning WP:NPOV --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ｔｏｍ: Not sure what we are meant to do - I cannot find a User:ARDITGILA here. My German is limited and I doubt that I can be of any help in wp:de, unless perhaps if you have a specific question. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:14, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Might be. Just keep an eye on it. Happy editing. --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 12:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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