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Moved from the Naming Conventions (identity) talk page to here as it is relevant:

==Identity==

Could Hyacinth or someone else explain to me the rationale for these conventions, perhaps giving some examples? It seems to be concerned with general terminology, not article naming in particular (which is what the page is about, I think?). —LarryGilbert 21:47, 2004 Apr 5 (UTC)

This is very much a big issue in article content, but is also a current naming issue. MSM, which was about the term "MSM" which refers to people, now redirect to Gay sex the activity, which used to be Same-sex sexual practices, which used to be Homosexual behavior. The convention as stands is written by me and will most likely be opposed by some and need to be worked on. Hyacinth 22:37, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Gender over sex

I would put forward and advocate that the use of the "same-sex" and "different-sex" be changed to "same-gender" and "opposite-gender". Not only does it remove any connotation of "different" being at times seen in a context of "normal" and "different" but also more cohesive to many of the issues surrounding gender and gender identity. For example, what about issues and articles which discuss people who are inter-sexed (i.e. people with indetemrinante gentalia or gender)? The term gender is more expansive and inclusive and takes into account the issues surrounding gender and how they relate to chromosomal sex and the social construction of gender. On a more grammatical and pedantic note, it is also less ungainly than saying for instance "same-sex sex" or "different-sex sexuality". Lestatdelc 23:19, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

What is the opposite-gender of inter-sexed? anthony (see warning) 23:32, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Your question goes to my point. What most people use "sex" as a descriptor for is in actuality "gender" which is a psychological and sociological construct. Hence the need to use that term since in such cases, chromosomal sex is disconnected to gender (the outward presentation of masculine or feminine, etc.), not to mention that intersexed people can often be of indeterminate sex, so their gender is how they are perceived both externally and how they perceive themselves. The suggestion about "opposite", vs. "different" is because there is (especially in certain "contreversial" context) and implied POV or bias within the term. Something being "different" can often within a social context be mildly, or even overtly negative. I posit that the terminology I have suggested is non-bias and better segues into the issues when discussing sex and gender within the context of trans, intersexed people and so on. This is also how many sociologists and people in the mental health field are defining things and trying to establish a more clear schema of terminology for and surrounding such issues. Lestatdelc 23:52, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Can you dig up examples for "opposite-gender" being recommended by sociologists and mental health techs? Also see: User:Hyacinth/Style guide.Hyacinth 00:13, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I am at work at the moment and I would literally have to dig out and try and find some of my old papers on the issues of gender terminology when I was working for an advocacy group when we were going to be testifying at a city council meeting here in Portland when a transgender anti-discrimination ordnance was being discussed (and passed), but off the top of my head you can check out The mission statement of the APA's div 44 group on transgender issues not to mention the joint resoultion on ussage of "gender" instead of "sex" when such issues have come up when crafting a bill in parliment. There are also a lot of stuff I would have parse through again when I was sifting through the APA's discussions about Gender dysphoria and how it relates to trans issues. There is a lot of discussion in the litaratre when merge the DSM-III-R categories of Transsexualism and Gender Identity Disorder of Adolescence or Adulthood, Nontranssexual Type (GIDAANT) in the DSM-IV but I don't have anythign handy on it at the moment. Lestatdelc 00:42, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

To add more confusion, Gender (a person's percieved gender role) does not always correspond with Sex (A person's anatomical gender role) or with Sexual Preference (whether the person is interested in sexual relations with males, females, both, or neither) - especially in the case of intersexed and transsexual persons. I think this is a distinction that needs to be clearly made within articles where it is relevent. Triona 11:41, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Style guides

• from the Safe Schools Coalition of Washington's Glossary for school employees:

"Gay: Preferred synonym for homosexual." "Homosexual: Avoid this term; it is clinical, distancing and archaic. Sometimes appropriate in referring to behavior (although same-sex is the preferred adj.). When referring to people, as opposed to behavior, homosexual is considered derogatory and the terms gay and lesbian are preferred, at least in the Northwest." -http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-glbt-defined.html

• from The Guardian style guide edited by David Marsh and Nikki Marshall:

"gay: synonymous with homosexual, and on the whole preferable" -http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/0,5817,184913,00.html

• from Avoiding Heterosexual Bias in Language by Committee on Lesbian and Gay Concern, American Psychological Association:

"Lesbian and gay male are preferred to the word 'homosexual' when used as an adjective referring to specific persons or groups, and lesbians and gay men are preferred terms over 'homosexuals' used as a noun when referring to specific persons or groups. The word 'homosexual' has several problems of designation. First, it may perpetuate negative stereotypes because of its historical associations with pathology and criminal behavior. Second, it is ambiguous in reference because it is often assumed to refer exclusively to men and thus renders lesbians invisible. Third, it is often unclear."

"The terms 'gay male' and 'lesbian' refer primarily to identities and to the modern culture and communities that have developed among people who share those identities. They should be distinguished from sexual behavior. Some men and women have sex with others of their own gender but do not consider themselves to be gay or lesbian. In contrast, the terms 'heterosexual' and 'bisexual' currently are used to describe identity as well as behavior."

"The terms 'gay' as an adjective and 'gay persons' as a noun have been used to refer to both males and females. However, these terms may be ambiguous in reference since readers who are used to the term 'lesbian and gay' may assume that 'gay' refers to men only. Thus it is preferable to use 'gay' or 'gay persons' only when prior reference has specified the gender composition of this term."

"Such terms as 'gay male' are preferable to 'homosexuality' or 'male homosexuality' and so are grammatical reconstructions (e.g., 'his colleagues knew he was gay' rather than 'his colleagues knew about his homosexuality'). The same is true for 'lesbian' over 'female homosexual', 'female homosexuality', or 'lesbianism.'"

"Same-gender behavior, male-male behavior, and female-female behavior are appropriate terms for specific instances of same-gender sexual behavior that people engage in regardless of their sexual orientation (e.g., a married heterosexual man who once had a same-gender sexual encounter). Likewise, it is useful that women and men not be considered 'opposites' (as in 'opposite sex') to avoid polarization, and that heterosexual women and men not be viewed as opposite to lesbians and gay men. Thus, male-female behavior is preferred to the term "opposite sex behavior" in referring to specific instances of other-gender sexual behavior that people engage in regardless of their sexual orientation."

"When referring to sexual behavior that cannot be described as heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual, special care needs to be taken. Descriptions of sexual behavior among animal species should be termed 'male-male sexual behavior" or 'male-female sexual behavior' rather than 'homosexual behavior' or 'heterosexual behavior,' respectively." -http://www.apastyle.org/sexuality.html

• from the Newswatch Diversity Style Guide:

"gay: Preferable in all references as a synonym for male homosexual. Lesbian is preferred term for women. To include both, use 'gay men and lesbians. Best to use 'gay' as an adjective, not a noun, such as 'gay man,' 'gay woman,' 'gay people.' In headlines where space is an issue, gay(s) is acceptable to describe both." -http://newswatch.sfsu.edu/guide/g.html

Hyacinth 00:57, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And I have no objection basing terminology along many of the lines in the literature you quote, however almost all of what is discussed here within "homosexual" "same-sex" articles and passages do in fact include bisexuals which is why a clinical and//or (depending on context) use of terms should be used. Also contextually many of the passages have overlap with gender issues for trans and intersexed people as much of the social antipathy and laws impact them as well. As I noted in the moved snippet above, the Texas case is but one example where there are various overlaying concepts and identification under the law and in the social sphere which intersect. In that case we had two women under the law in states outside of Texas, two women anatomically, a man and a woman genetically. So gender and sex are in fact separate issues in various states and within varying context. The issue of intersexed people further mixes up the distinctions, which is why using "gender" to describe anatomy (which is changeable) and identity (which is also fluid) is more appropriate and "sex" to describe the genetic criterion.

For example, what of a bisexual genetic, anatomic and self-identifying male has sex with a trans person who who has legally, anatomically transitions from a genetic male to a legal and anatomical female. She is a woman under the law, a woman by anatomy, male by genetics, identifies as heterosexual female (has no interest in female-female sex) ... is that heterosexual sex? Opposite-sex sex? Bisexual sex?

What about when my partner (a bisexual female) and I (a bisexual male) have sex, is that bisexual sex?

The issue is in what context are specific criterion being discussed. Again, I posit that the most neutral inclusive term be used when the contextually. Most of what is termed "gay" or "homosexual" or "same-sex" can and should be made neutral to and included what is actually being discussed, people of the same gender engaged sexually somehow or within said grouping. Lestatdelc 01:28, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

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gay

pro:

• gay rights community's favorite word
• sounds positive, upbeat

con:

• can't stretch to cover male and female, because gay has connotation of male as in "gay and lesbian"
• historically, "gay" meant "loose" and "immoral" (e.g., in Victorian London)

I fear that there is no term acceptable to all sides. Er, one's man's gay is another man's homosexual (at the risk of sounding flippant).

Sometimes I think politically correct terminology is used to prevent discussion from taking place. Don't say cripples, they're "differently abled", etc. Any attempt to launch a discussion about the topic can easily be sidetracked into a discussion of acceptable terminology. This is reminiscent of Orientalism which claims that non-Muslims people cannot possibly understand Islam and therefore ought to shut up about it. I hope that doesn't happen here. --Uncle Ed 01:06, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's claiming that you don't understand and ought to shut up. However, using the terms 'gay' and 'lesbian' is simple politeness. What's the big deal? Ambivalenthysteria 01:09, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Okay, and will you refer to Sun Myung Moon as "the Messiah" and "True Father"? Just to be polite, of course (!). --Uncle Ed 01:16, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like apples and oranges. "True Father", for instance, is inherently POV - Moon is not the "True Father" to everyone. Terms such as "gay" and "lesbian" are lesser so. Dysprosia 01:25, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Bad example

• Anti-gay-lesbian-trangender-hater-person-guy
  • Pro
    • Essentially covers the entire field
  • Con
    • Somewhat ridiculous in its political correctness

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Heads Up

Thought, in case none of you have it on your watch list, that you'd want to know that Sam Spade is currently questioning the policy regarding whehter to use homosexual or gay over on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style.

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Hyacinth

Um... is Hyacinth the only person active on this page, or what? Sam Spade 20:19, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Category:BDSM submissives

Apologies for a few cross-posts here, it is hard to guess just where this should go.

Category:BDSM submissives Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_24#.5B.5B:Category:BDSM_submissives.5D.5D is currently being discussed for possible deletion because it contains only one article (Bob Flanagan). This drew my attention to several other BDSM-related categories, at least one of which is, well, weirdly populated. Copying some remarks (mine) from the discussion in question:

It is remarkable that this category is so empty when (I just checked, following a guess) Category:Dominatrices has 12 entries and Category:Bondage models has a whopping 76. [Warning, slightly tasteless humor follows.] Just goes to show what the nerdboys writing articles in this subject area are into, I guess. And at a quick look, 100% of the bondage models listed are female. Don't we have any gay nerdboys into leather here at the 'pedia? Practically worthy of WP:CSB.

Anyway, can someone help populate Category:BDSM submissives rather than delete it? And is anyone writing about male bondage models? - Jmabel | Talk 18:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)