Talk:Christian vegetarianism

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Wholesale changes without discussion[edit]

The following was changed:

Specific sacrifices of animals for the atonement of sin were also mandated in the Old Testament, by Moses, but was superceded in the New Covenant by Jesus' death "once for all".[Hebrews 9:12]

The change was:

However, specific sacrifices of animals for the atonement of sin are also mandated, by Moses, what is inconsistent with the principle of grace: one cannot force someone to forgive.

That change completely contradicts the original text. Not only that, it removed a reference to Hebrews, and now instead of saying that the sacrificial system has been superseded (which is what is commonly understood), it now says that it should never have been implemented as it disallows Grace! I should also point out the grammatical error - it's not "what is inconsistent", it should be "which is inconsistent". It also changes everything from the Bible to The Bible, which also seems unusual. I've reverted this edit. Apologies for the somewhat incoherent edit summary - I did this on my bed with an iPad and my kids suddenly jumped on me mid-edit. - Letsbefiends (talk) 09:42, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article already commented (including links) the supersession view (and Hebrews), so I see that "but was superseded […]" (including the ref of Hebrews) is redundant, and not neutral, because of the historical opinions that did not believe that animal sacrifices were ever right. So the change by the anon, although we may agree that it is not completely neutral, is plausible.
The claim that it "completely contradicts the original text" (at least in in the matter of animal sacrifices) presupposes that one believes that the Biblical canon is necessarily consistent. There are opposing views (and what the Essenes believed about the matter is an evidence that they too did not agree with the position that what is known as "the Bible" is 'inerrant'), and the article needs to follow the NPOV policy.
Formerly, the article said "what may be inconsistent with the principle of grace: one cannot force someone to forgive", so I believe that (at least for the while) 'what perhaps is inconsistent with the principle of grace or that one cannot force God to forgive' is better for neutrality.
As to the Colossians passage, it does not speak about the sacrificed animals as types of Christ, but about remission of sins.
Algorithme (talk) 00:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is NOT from the Gospel of the Ebionites[edit]

"In the 4th Century some Jewish Christian groups maintained that Jesus was himself a vegetarian. Epiphanius quotes the Gospel of the Ebionites where Jesus has a confrontation with the high priest. Jesus chastises the leadership saying, "I am come to end the sacrifices and feasts of blood; and if ye cease not offering and eating of flesh and blood, the wrath of God shall not cease from you; even as it came to your fathers in the wilderness, who lusted for flesh, and did sat to their content, and were filled with rottenness, and the plague consumed them.""

This is from The Gospel of the Holy Twelve, which was communicated to Rev. Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley in dreams and visions of the night, NOT from the Gospel of the Ebionites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamrcr (talk • contribs) 18:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Music[edit]

Imagining Christianity without churches and music is challenging for many of us. There ought to be a section on Christian music that moves the vegetarian and vegan (as normative) discussion. Songs about religious vegetarianism AS SUCH, with a section on (but not focusing on) religious hymns (Dare to be a Daniel,For the beauty of the Earth, All creatures of our God and King, Doxology, etc.) that cite edible plants as normative could help make this a far better (and less merely cerebral') article. MaynardClark (talk) 02:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fish and loaves[edit]

So why is there no mention of the five loaves and the two fish or Luke 24:42-43? How Christian vegetarians explain those incidents away would be an interesting addition to the article. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.27.212.13 (talk) 06:50, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you know the Jewish customs of the period, then Jesus telling his disciples to prepare for the Passover meal (Matthew chapter 26, Mark chapter 12, Luke chapter 22) is even more problematic, since 99% of the time among families that could afford it, the passover meal involved eating a lamb (see Passover sacrifice#The Home Ceremony). If the description of Jesus' passover meal doesn't say anything about no lamb having been eaten, then there's a very strong presumption that lamb was eaten, as was typical and normal. The article discusses the passover lamb in the context of the Old Testament, but for some reason not in the New Testament... AnonMoos (talk) 06:37, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This has been hotly debated in the Essene literature. MaynardClark (talk) 13:07, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Whether anything found at Qumran is actually "Essene" is a very complicated question. But it doesn't matter here, since the priestly families who controlled the Jerusalem Temple rituals (called "Sadducees" in the New Testament) and the Rabbis who had great influence on the Jewish population outside the priesthood (called "Pharisees" in the New Testament) together defined mainstream 1st century A.D. Second Temple Judaism. If you didn't respect the authority of either Sadducees or Pharisees, then you were a fringe Jew (or "sectarian"), not a mainstream Jew -- and mainstream Jews ate lamb at the Passover meal. AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What's the point? In your understanding, if we were to think FROM OUT HERE in the VEGAN FUTURE that Isaiah predicted, those who LEFT the practices of their time AND those Jews in the 210th/21st century who abandoned religion altogether might have been in a better position to get 'the herbivorous Word'! MaynardClark (talk) 01:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that there's a very high probability that Jesus and his disciples ate a lamb during the passover meal which Jesus told his disciples to prepare. AnonMoos (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You have no evidence; it's speculation. Further, God's work could use Christendom for a while then move on. MaynardClark (talk) 16:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you know the relevant facts about the Judaism of that time period, then it's kind of obvious, as I said before (with the additional assumption that if the text of the New Testament doesn't mention Jesus and his disciples doing anything strikingly abnormal according to the customs and rituals of mainstream Judaism at their Passover dinner -- such as not eating lamb -- then it's very unlikely that they did anything strikingly abnormal at their Passover dinner). If you don't know the relevant facts, then all the abstract reasoning in the world can't usefully replace them. AnonMoos (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Paual was a vegan[edit]

Check out 1 Chorinthians 8.13. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB88:370C:1480:41B1:CB70:1409:E254 (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Original research tag[edit]

As far as I can in the edit history, a user by the name of Aminomancer added the tag in December 2021. The weird thing is, their edits make it look like they added original research and added the tag. I'm suggesting we go back and restore the edits before theirs, which means removing the tag. Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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