Talk:'s-Hertogenbosch

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How is the name of that city pronounced? David.Monniaux 16:03, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that it's pronounced /sɛrtoːɣənbɔs/, but I'm neither a Dutch speaker or a linguist, and you certainly shouldn't take my word for it. I think maybe I haven't got the vowels quite right. But roughly for English speakers it's close to "sair-toe-khen-BOSS", I've been told. Iceager 23:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's pretty close :o) — but be sure to make the "kh" a real fricative and a voiced one at that. So like the "ch" in Scottish "loch" but softer. And the "sair" is perhaps better rendered by "ser". The point is that the "H" at the beginning is assimilated by the "s" and the "sch" at the end is simply an imitation of High German Busch that was never functional, while the "'s" indicates the elision of "de" from "des" and the hyphen indicates that the whole should be pronounced as a single word. And that pronunciation has been constant over the eight centuries of existence of the city: Sertogenbos.--MWAK 07:10, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Iceager is fully right questioning the accuracy. The s sound in Dutch used with words ending on -sch is different and is NOT 100% like the "s" used in English language. It is something in-between "s" and English "sh" as in "sugar". Check here also: Voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative -andy 80.129.116.55 00:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the difference, if any, is minimal. The sound is alveolar, be it laminal. And what exactly do you mean with "Dutch words ending on -sch"? These are not pronounced differently from those ending on -s.--MWAK 12:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Perhaps interesting to note is that the well depicted in the picture of the marketplace has been removed. --81.206.214.43 (talk) 20:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone with knowledge of Dutch possibly explain how the word(s?) 's-Herogenbosch works in Dutch? I assume that's a genitive 's', but what's it doing on the front? Ilovechocolatechip (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The entire name is, as stated in the article, a contraction of des Hertogen bosch. So the place is a bos (in modern spelling, cf. "bush" in English) or "wood" that is des Hertogen, "of the Duke". So, yes, it is a genitive and des is the genitive declension of the article de (and articles are in front of nouns in Dutch, as in English, and that's why it's in front). But you should not be fooled by the apostrophe; this doesn't as such indicate a genitive in Dutch but is a general sign indicating elision, or the disappearance of parts of a word. Whenever it could be comfortably combined with the subsequent noun, our lazy mumbling Dutch ancestors simply reduced the des to a single "s" and the later scholars in the 17th century reinventing the spelling of the written language didn't quite approve of this and thought it best to point out the ommission by a ', lest future generations (deemed if possible even more stupid than the present one) should forget the provenance. Also, not to spoil the word image, the "s" was kept apart from the noun, but, to indicate it should be pronounced as a single word, connected to it by a hyphen. In the Middle Ages they weren't yet so subtle and simply wrote it all as one word.--MWAK (talk) 08:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how it's pronounced to be honest. This is one of the weirdest City names I've ever seen lol RedSidewinderz (talk) 19:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove this link/spam[edit]

^ #10 "The Worlds Ugliest Buildings - AOL Real Estate". Realestate.aol.com. Retrieved 2013-03-25. It gets so frustrating to click on spam like this link. I've noticed that there are an increasing number of them on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.88 (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of 's-Hertogenbosch[edit]

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content! Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Punctuation[edit]

What is the correct line and correct apostrophe to use when writing the name of this town in English? Possibilities: • 's-Hertogenbosch • ’s-Hertogenbosch • 's—Hertogenbosch • ’s—Hertogenbosch (I’m writing a book, and a Dutch source seems to use the last. what should I write in English? And does the article match?) JDAWiseman (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only correct form is ’s-Hertogenbosch. The m-dash is uncommon in Dutch and never used as a hyphen; and the ' is really a quotation mark.--MWAK (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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French and German[edit]

Is there really any need for the French and German names of this city in the lead? They have no official status in the city or in the Netherlands as a whole. The history section says that the city was briefly occupied around 1800 by the French and in World War 2 by the Germans, but that is a very brief interlude shared by the majority of Europe. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bois-le-Duc should be mentioned as it is a common English name for the city from medieval times till the present day. Of course this has to do with the English taking the name from the French. Compare this to e.g. Aachen, where Aix-la-Chapelle is the French and the traditional English equivalent. (There is less need for the German name, but that should be mentioned on the German Wikipedia) Grieg2 (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, due to the dominant status of French as the culture language of the Low Countries until well into the 19th century, in many local and international sources the city was referred to as Bois-le-Duc. The ducal court of Brabant spoke French, the Dutch elites of the 17th and 18th centuries increasingly wrote French and French was one of the official languages of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. Secondary education was mainly in French until 1856.--MWAK (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting. Just that none of this was even referred to on the page when I edited it, and the WP:BURDEN falls on those adding information to prove the relevance of such names, not the other way around. You have to realise that the average reader does not know about ducal courts and 19th-century education policies, besides if it was written on this page, which it isn't. They're going to come with the expectation that a city in the Netherlands speaks Dutch unless there's a provincial or municipal law adding another language. Nobody has mentioned a "good reason" for keeping the German, but let sleeping dogs lie. Unknown Temptation (talk) 12:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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