Talk:Salary

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Pliny the Elder

The article previously had a reference to Pliny the Elder giving an etymology of the word. I'm using the same reference the false quote linked to - specifically Section 89

In this, Pliny the Elder claims the origin of the word can be seen in the "Salary of the way". He links it to "largess of the Emperor" ("congiario") which are gifts typically given to soldiers after a campaign, not payment. In this case he specifically mentions Ancus Marcius, 4th king of Rome, giving salt and food to "populis" ("the people" rather than specifically soldiers) when taking the salt works (presumably this refers to those at Ostia that Ancus Marcius took, though it's not mentioned by name in this text) and Ostia wasn't a military conquest.

Pliny the Elder is linking a one-time gift to pre-republic people with the term, not the regular pay of imperial soldiers. For context, the Empire replaced the Republic, and the Republic replaced the Kingdom. The one-time gift was during the Kingdom era, Pliny the Elder was speaking during the Empire, roughly 600 years after the event he was referencing.

I have removed the bad translation for now. If someone feels Pliny the Elder's folk etymology is relevant, please add it in with a correct translation, not claims of soldiers, nor of being "paid in salt". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.166.55.11 (talk) 18:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Roman Salarium

Our discussion on salarium clearly says that Roman soldiers were not paid in salt -- a common error -- and that a salarium was probably not even a "salt allowance". This is based on Gainsford's blog "Salt and salary: were Roman soldiers paid in salt?", which is very convincing and well-argued, with references to primary sources. And besides his very good blog series, Gainsford also publishes in traditional journals.[1] But for such strong claim, in the face of overwhelming amounts of misinformation even in reputable sources, it would be good to have additional sources. Any ideas where to find them? --Macrakis (talk) 16:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I originally added the blog entry as source, for the reasons that you stated and agree that it's provenance means that it is not totally satisfactory. The best additional source that I have found is the following brief note in John L. Myres "Ancient Groceries" Greece & Rome Vol. 22, No. 64 (1953), pp. 1-10 at p. 5: "Salt came easily from the ubiquitous sea, under so strong a sun, and was traded, like fish, far inland, till it met the rock-salt, mined in Salzkammergut since very early times... the earliest and typical 'allowance for expenses' was the salarium 'salt money', like the customary charge for 'condiments' in the battel-bills of Oxford colleges" Furius (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

If I read Gainsford correctly, there isn't even evidence for the 'salt money' theory. Myres' paper is a lecture for the general public (written in 1910!) and the statement has no source, ancient or modern. If it was a line item in a soldier's pay, I'd think it would show up in some ancient account-book.

To be clear, I find Gainsford's article convincing, but it would be nice if it were corroborated by additional, stronger sources, or even reviews of Gainsford's article in good journals. --Macrakis (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Myres' article is a modified version of the lecture, published in Greece & Rome, which is one of the higher prestige journals in the field of ancient history. It remains common in the field to cite articles from the first half of the 20th century. Myres is not saying that salarium was money for salt, he's saying, like Gainsford, that the term literally means "salt-money" but was a general "allowance for expenses" of all sorts. There will not be reviews of Gainsford's post in journals. I didn't realise that you wanted a source for the existence of the salarium in ancient times. There are plenty of sources ancient and modern for the salarium as a line item and discuss how much it was - e.g. Daniel Peretz "The Roman Interpreter and His Diplomatic and Military Roles" Historia 2006, Bd. 55, H. 4 (2006), pp. 451-470 at 453, but such documents don't explain what the salarium is (in the same way that modern receipts record how much VAT was paid but don't say what VAT is)... There's also this [2] Furius (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2022 (UTC)