Talk:Chakotay

Endgame

{{spoiler}} Warning: Spoiler for episode Endgame

I'm pretty sure the grave in Endgame listed Chakotay's birth and death as being 2326-2394 (it was previously listed as 2329-2394 on the article). Also, I removed the date of death, since that grave came from an alternate timeline and it is very possible that Chakotay's death would occur at some other point in the new timeline 23:10, 6 Nov 2004 Q0

Where did 2404 for Chakotay's death come from? I know Endgame took place in 2404 during the future scenes, but Chakotay's grave in that episode was listed as being 2394 (but still, that was an alternate timeline). Where did the 2404 come from? Is there evidence from somewhere else in the show that that is the date of Chakotay's death? Q0 15:16, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I reinserted Chakotay's birth in the article. Even though the grave was from another timeline, only the date of death is likely to be different in other timelines. The date of birth should stay the same. Q0 22:34, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Non-Canon Novel Reference

I've noticed wiki-articles on Star Trek characters refer sometimes to the novels. They are NOT canon, and CANNOT be part of the trekverse. So many conflicting and complicated back stories end up in the hundreds of Star Trek novels, it's ridiculous to pick and choose what to add to a wiki. Even if they make sense, any references to novels should absolutely be removed.

Canon does not determine noteworthiness. This is an encyclopedia, not a guide to what is canon about a particular character. For instance, if there were a fan fiction involving Chakotay that somehow inspired a real life group of people to revolution, that would have a place in this entry (absurd perhaps, but you get the point). 66.193.18.4 (talk) 23:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Rank

Chakotay was given the rank of Commander, not Lieutenant Commander. Captain Janeway's previous First Officer (pilot episode), held the rank of Lieutenant Commander. GoodDay 21:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

That's what I thought, too. FIXING! EDIT: And I also included the fact that his burth name is Amol Kotay.

Yet the rank insignia he wore has been generally considered to be that of a Lieutenant Commander (Two Gold and One black pips is a non-provisional LCDR)... The series bible also referred to him as a Lieutenant Commander

I'm eating crow, you're right. Chakotay's 'provisional' rank is Lieutenant Commander. GoodDay 02:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Chakotay's rank, he could be addressed as either "Commander" or "Lt. Commander" while holding the rank of Lt. Commander; it's fairly customary and traditional in the real world. added a quick edit to reflect that. Better to just delete the whole section unless the bit about Species 8472 is meant to be kept. - Anon

The Lt. Commander insignia was a costuming error, just as Tuvok's Lt. Cmdr. insignia was in the first season. Chakotay was a full commander (as listed in VGR's opening credits in seasons 1 - 3), it was even stated in the VGR episode "In the Flesh" that he was a full commander when boothby was reading his information, had he been a lt. cmdr. it would have been stated at some point in the series, but it wasn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MHB210 (talk • contribs) 09:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I remember it being in writing that he was lieutenant commander. Full credits only say commander because that is how he was addressed in the show. Information on display screens in the show is often contradictory and misplaced. It is written by low level interns who have no clue. The time in question, that I don't remember, was probably due to the opening credits. --< Nicht Nein! (talk) 14:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Serial Number

Any way (or place?) to include it? It's 47-A-612. Trekphiler 15:43, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Valjean

Where is this refrenced in the series? The only place I ever remember seeing this is on a non-cannon ST:CCG Card. EnsRedShirt 08:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC) never mind must read entire article ;) EnsRedShirt 08:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Chakotay's Personality

That was a nice summary of Chakotay's history.

Now, as someone who's never seen Voyager, what I'd really like to know is how Chakotay's character plays out, and what role he fills next to the other members of Voyager's crew. That is more important than any amount of made-up trivia.

In general, I'd like the Wikipedian fans of any franchise to stop flooding articles with random 'facts' and start getting to the crux of the matters at hand, but that's just me.

- The sad fact is that his character just did not "play out". He was a "spiritual" native stereotype who's only role was to sometimes agree with Captain Janeway. In the last season he was a small part of a Seven romance sub-plot.

Chakotay's first name is "Fred".

He mentions it in this interview: [1] Avengah (talk) 08:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That was not an interview of Chakotay; that was an interview of an actor. The actor was joking; he might as well have said “Izzy”. Chakotay is the son of someone named “Kolopak”, so presumably Chakotay's first name is just, well, “Chakotay”, with no distinct last name.

It's no accident that Chakotay's name is rather like that of Tonto. Chakotay was a stereotype — politically correct, perhaps, and created with blundering notions of respect, but still a stereotype. —SlamDiego_←T 20:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Admiral Chakotay

There's a mention of Admiral Chakotay in DS9 S1 - any relation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.179.181 (talk) 14:01, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no way of knowing definitively but it is unlikely. Dlabtot (talk) 22:08, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Nope, that's Chekote. Junuxx (talk) 02:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Assessment

I have added a quality assessment rating and importance rating to this article. Feel free to change them as the article improves! Also, feel free to add more issues to the list below, and strike them out (strike) when they're completed. — OranL (talk) 03:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Notable issues

• The article's lead requires expansion.
• The article is missing citations.
• The rank section is original research, and needs to be rewritten to exclude things like "assumed" and "believed to be" unless they are specifically referenced using solid sources.

Dubious

The spelling is not what is in dispute. He assumes the name 'Amal Kotay' to infiltrate the planet because he had previously identified himself by his real name, 'Chakotay', to the alien vessel and to the official. Nowhere is it stated, implied, hinted at, or alluded to, that Amal Kotay is his real name. Please rewatch the episode again, and if you still disagree, we will have to pursue some form of dispute resolution. Dlabtot (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

There are two conversations where he identifies himself as Amal Kotay, but says that his friends call him Chakotay. I have watched the episode many, many times (most recently last weekend) and don't get a hint that it was any sort of assumed name. The only part of his identity that was false was his appearance, as altered by the Doctor. I only mentioned the spelling because on this occassion, I turned on the subtitles to make sure that I got that correct before altering wikipedia. I have deleted the episode from Sky+, but perhaps I can find it elsewhere.

I'm not going by memory; I watched it yesterday after you made your edit. I watched it again today - twice. You are simply wrong. For example, in part one, he identifies himself to Janeway at 36:57: "It's Chakotay." Then after he perceives that she doesn't recognize him, he gives the assumed name and identity. He is identified in the credits and dialog of 172 episodes, as well as the Season Six DVD special feature "Voyager Time Capsule: Chakotay" (which I also just watched) as 'Chakotay'. On the official Star Trek website, it lists "Full Name: Chakotay" [2] Since you don't appear to be willing to admit your error, I suppose I will have to start an RfC. Also, please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~) and thread discussions by indenting with a colon. Dlabtot (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

What is the name of the character played by Robert Beltran on the series Star Trek: Voyager?

Is the characters 'real' name, 'Chakotay' or 'Amal Kotay'?

Please see the above discussion.

---

I haven't seen the episode in question, though I have difficulty believing that the writers would introduce a "real name" in a single episode while he was in disguise. The memory alpha article implies that it was a false name. Unless you can find a reliable source to suggest that his "real name" is Amal Kotay (interview with writer etc) we should not be including it based on a single in-universe reference. Wikipedia is not meant to be the truth, just verifiable. Oh, by the way, would be good to expand the rfc to explain the situation a little more, whilst remainnig neutral. Worm 13:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned on User Talk:Dlabtot talk page, there is no relevance to the character's 'real' name, it's not something that we can decide at Wikipedia, no matter how much comment we have. I attempted to change the question to whether or not the importance of this 'real' name is sufficient to have in the article, but have been reverted. I'm not sure what the purpose of this RFC is. Worm 16:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The purpose of the RfC is to resolve the dispute over whether the article should state: "His real name is Amal Kotay, as revealed in the episode 'Workforce: Part 1' ".[3] Thank you for your interest. Dlabtot (talk) 16:53, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Chakotay/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zanimum (talk · contribs) 22:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I did the review on Harry Kim, so I might as well do Chakotay's. -- Zanimum (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

First off, Wow, Robert Beltran has aged.

Infobox

• Was Chakotay provisional the entire series?

• Yep - never seen on screen with a Starfleet rank. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Fair, thanks. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• Why no "last appearance"? I presume this is only supposed to count in-universe, and it's fairly clear at this point there won't be a Voyager feature film.

• There's no "last appearance" in the infobox template. I agree it would make sense to be included, but I'm not confident in editing infobox templates. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Interesting! I've asked on the portal what people think. For the purposes of this GA, we'll set this matter aside. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Concept and development

Fascinating development process. Also, interesting find about Braga's focus on some characters rather than others, I don't think the person who wrote on Harry Kim had found that.

• I did the Harry Kim article too - admittedly I have a new source (or rather, I realised that there was some casting information in the middle of a source I had at the time (because the natural place to put the casting info and startup info is around page 175 and not at the start of a book without an index!). But yeah, the Harry Kim idea wasn't very interesting at all compared to the others. The Doctor's one is really cool as it was directly linked to them wanting to recreate the Holographic Moriarty from TNG. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm realizing that you're indeed one and the same, seeing your user name! -- Zanimum (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• "appearing in Models Inc." is ambiguous. Is he a judge on a reality show, a regular on a comedy, a recurring role in a drama? The program is obscure, so it would be good to help establish Beltran's pre-Trek credentials.

• Clarified that it was a soap opera (and Melrose Place spin off). Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Wow, I didn't know there was a spin-off. Thanks for adding the genre. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• Hamlet's producers wanted him to have the tattoo makeup on? The sentence isn't perfectly clear.

• Clarified - and made sure it was mentioned as a joke. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks! (I was wondering if they legitimately thought he had a real facial tattoo!) -- Zanimum (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• quotations around Endgame

• Fixed - I'd missed the first one. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Appearances

• Is John Kelly a historical figure to young Chakotay? The term astronaut is throwing me off.

• I swapped the astronaut link around to follow John Kelly to make it more obvious. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• I've changed it further, to emphasis that it was centuries ago that Lt Kelly was alive, well before Voyager's era. The switchero you did could still imply that he was contemporary to Chakotay and the rest of the Voyager crew.

• How is it that a TNG episode references Ro Laren as a student specifically of Chakotay? Even if the ST official site says he trained her, the episode wouldn't.

• The episode had Ro Laren mention that a native american teacher of hers at the academy resigned to join the Maquis. Related DYK point - turns all the Maquis episodes in TNG and DS9 were designed simply to introduce the Maquis characters in Voyager. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• They planned that far ahead? Wow. While he wasn't mentioned by name, if Star Trek's official site has woven this together, I'm comfortable with the actual TNG episode as backup. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• In the background section, is it possible to sum up in a sentence what the Maquis were about again? The first season is a blur in my mind. Were they a rebel force, just space hippies, what?

• Let me double check the source as I'm sure it explains it. Once I have the page ref, I'll add it. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Who is demoted to make Chakotay second in command?

• The original executive officer died at the start of "Caretaker". Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Cool, thanks. (Rusty memory.)

• Cathexis should be in quotes, shouldn't it?

• I think someone else came in and fixed that one. :) Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Chris857, apparently. Interesting how dynamic Wikipedia is!

• no need for "actually"

• Fixed. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks.

• The sentence about Gegen sounds like he's trying to prove Chakotay came from the same home world as humans, but I presume it's to prove Voth came from the same world? Also, wouldn't Gegen be trying to prove Voth came from Earth? Might as well name drop our planet, lest people think ST says humans were transported here from elsewhere. Chakotay giving the model of Earth does sort of imply which home world, but I dunno.

• I've tweaked it and made it more obvious. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks.

Janeway is assimilated in a TNG novel? What a welcome home. Ah, good old non-canonical books. :)

I know - not even a generic Star Trek novel but a TNG one. The Q later resurrected her though. Mind you I still would like something canon to come along and blow the silly Borg/Caelar Gestault stuff out of the water. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Hehe.

Reception

• Is Borofsky notable enough that someone could feasibly write on him?

• Quite right, I've removed the link. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks.

• "for his Captain but she" --> "for his Captain, but she"

• Done. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Passing See also, Notes, Citations, References, External links.

The category "Fictional anthropologists"... is that addressed in the article? He doesn't approach his culture like an anthropologist.

• Removing that. It was referenced in a single episode but not a major part of the character. Miyagawa (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks. If you were to ever weave that into the article, you could re-add the category. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with the talk page that the whole Amal Kotay debate isn't something that can be resolved on Wikipedia.

Still remaining for me to review are the lead, pictures. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Pictures, lead good. Other than a brief explanation of what the Maquis are, it's ready for GA approval. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Great. I'll get that sorted tonight. I';; add a brief bit about the foreshadowing of the Maquis in TNG/DS9 too as it's directly stated as such in the source. Miyagawa (talk) 12:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Added a background paragraph about the Maquis. Miyagawa (talk) 13:42, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Very good, well worth the wait! GA! -- Zanimum (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Native American culture

The phrasing "that culture" implies that there is only a single Native American culture throughout North and Central (or even South) America, which is frankly ridiculous and offensive. This phrasing really needs to be changed, but I can't come up with a satisfying alternative right now. Any ideas? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to offend - it wasn't intended. I've removed both instances of "that culture" and rephrased the line in the lead. Miyagawa (talk) 10:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

JFTR: I'm German and have no Native American affiliation at all, only a general interest in the subject, so I was not personally offended. However, the amalgamation of hundreds of cultures into an undifferentiated, stereotypicalised, romanticised mass of Other is a sore spot for Native Americans, as the Americas are no less diverse than Eurasia culturally and ethno-linguistically, and this is also apparent from the criticism parts of the article: Chakotay is designed as a generic Native American stereotype (even treating North America and Central America as the same cultural area or exchangeable!), and many real natives did not like this superficial, patronising kind of pandering at all as it merely perpetuated old stereotypes instead of enlightening the viewer. 500 Nations was intentionally named like this to underline that Native American nations are not merely "tribes" and their languages not mere "dialects", but that the difference between Sioux and Navajo is no smaller than that between Spaniards and Finns. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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