Talk:Javanese language

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template.

Yes I'll look into it. Meursault2004 00:13, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done by several contributors. Meursault2004 5 July 2005 07:33 (UTC)

Copyedit[edit]

I edit in many small chunks. In an effort to not add tons of editing incidents to the main article, I'm gonna put them in User:Bubamara/Javanese_language and then merge the whole thing in one fell swoop. Or maybe 2 or 3 fell swoops. Also, I'm dumb and put the discussion on my user page, so here it is, reconstructed. Bubamara 08:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

    1. Inro, Para2: is it factually correct to say "Javanese is spoken on the north coast of West, Central and East Java" instead of "Javanese is spoken on the north coast of West Java, Central and East Java"?
    2. Inro, Para2: is Sunda 'equivalent to' West Java, or 'in' west java?
    3. Inro, Para2: is it relevant / notable that "It was the court language in Palembang, South Sumatra before their palace was sacked by the Dutch in the late 18th century."
    4. Intro, Para5: "Javanese has been written with the Javanese script, (a descendant of the Brahmi script of India), Arabo-Javanese script, Arabic script (modified for Javanese) and Latin script." has been or is?
    5. Intro, Para6: " It is estimated that it is spoken or understood by at least 80 millions people. " the intro says that ethnologue puts the # at 75,500,000. I don't really care which #, but the article should be internally consistant. btw, ethnologue is some sketchy christian group, which makes me more skeptical about their veracity.
  • other problems:
    1. side table lists javanese at 11th most speakers, but they're 12th right now.

Bubamara

ad. 1: I think it's better to say: Javanese is spoken in Central and East Java. It is also spoken on the north coast of West Java. ad. 2:Sunda is in West Java. However some consider the whole fof West Java as Sunda. ad. 3: Yes. ad. 4: Is. ad. 5: OK. ad. 6: OK.

OK, thanks! Meursault2004 07:10, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Wow. Thanks. I have a question your response about Sunda & West Java. What did you mean when you wrote "In Sunda (West Java), Madura, Bali and Lombok, Javanese is also used as a literary language." I want to edit those parentheses out of there, but don't understand which of the following is correct: a) In the Sunda region of West Java, Madura, Bali and Lombok. . . or b) In Sunda, Madura, Bali and Lombok . . . Bubamara 09:19, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sunda was/is a region, located in West Java. Well actually that is the name of an ethnic group and their language. Madura, Bali and Lombok are the names of other isles. Meursault2004 11:24, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    1. Dialects (orphaned section at the bottom): is it factually accurate to say "The Western Javanese dialect, spoken in West Java (particularly in the north coast region), contains sub-dialects distinct for their Sundanese influences and which still maintain many archaic words. The sub-dialects are Jawa Serang, North coast, Indramayu or Dermayon and Cirebonan or Basa Cerbon."?
I think this sentence is in bad English. Maybe the writer meant to say: "The Western Javanese dialect, spoken in West Java (particularly in the north coast region), contains sub-dialects, which are distinct for their Sundanese language influences and which still contain many archaic words. The sub-dialects are "Serang Javanese", "North coastal Javanese", "Indramayu Javanese" or Dermayon and "Cirebon Javanese" or Basa Cerbon." Or perhaps you can render it into a better sentence! BTW [...] still contain many archaic words, is non NPOV. Meursault2004 00:07, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Javanese Indonesian Dutch English
pit sepeda fiets bicycle
pit montor sepeda motor motorfiets motor bicycle
sepur kereta api spoor, i.e. (rail)track) train

Some answers:

  • Well with former times, it is meant before 1945, the proclamation of Indonesia. In fact Malay is still the lingua franca and national language of Indonesia. The difference is, it is called by another name now. Nowadays it is called Indonesian. It's basically the same language though.
  • Well I don't understand your question, but the table looks good.

Meursault2004 16:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)


As of April 8th, here are my outstanding problems:

Bubamara 08:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Western Javanese is not Banyumasan[edit]

Although Banyumasan is a member of the Western Javanese language group, it is not synonimous. Some western Javanese dialects have different histories than Banyumasan dialect. Meursault2004 08:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm reverting (by hand) many of the edits equating Banyumasan with Western Javanese. Bubamara 08:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

demographic distribution[edit]

  • In the table, are there really no figures for the number of Javanese speakers in Jakarta? And is there a reason the total percentage is left out?
  • "It is estimated that at least 33 % of the population is of Javanese descent and as such speak Javanese or have knowledge of it." Is that 33% of the population of Java?

Bubamara 08:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well I meant 33 % of the population of Jakarta :-) The exact number of Javanese speakers in Jakarta is unknown so I left it out. Meursault2004 08:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Javanese speakers in Lampung[edit]

I've just adjusted the number of Javanese speakers in Lampung. Previously it was 80 %, this number proves to be too high. It is about 61 %. Meursault2004 14:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Javanese ethnic group[edit]

There should also be a page on the Javanese ethnic group, shouldn't there?

Javanese is linked from the Java_(island) entry, in the Ethnic_groups section. However it redirects to the Javanese_language page. Singkong 3 July 2005 12:24 (UTC)

Yes of course. Maybe you would like to write (or start) this article? There is already an article about the Javanese ethnic group in the Indonesian wikipedia. Meursault2004 3 July 2005 16:49 (UTC)
Okay, I'll have time in a few weeks from now, so if no one has made a start I'll have a go at translating that page.
Singkong 5 July 2005 00:02 (UTC)

Mutual intelligibility[edit]

Is Javanese mutually intelligible to any degree with Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia, Sundanese, Madurese or Balinese? Thanks. ~ Dpr 04:45, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, Javanese is rather different than Malay although both are related. The relationship between both languages is similar as the relationship between let's say English and Danish. Javanese is actually also quite distant from Sundanese, Madurese and Balinese. But due to Javanese influence (=colonialism) in the past, these three languages have undergone a heavy process of Javanisation. So in the higher registers of these latter languages, there are many Javanese loanwords. The literary language and the so-called krama variants of Sundanese, Balinese and to a lesser degree Madurese are more or less mutually intelligible with (High) Javanese. So a short conclusion would be that the grammar of Sundanese, Madurese, and Balinese are different from Javanese. However, these four languages have a similar vocabulary. Meursault2004 07:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Javanese talk funny. Don't get me wrong, I meant that in an endearing way. The language sounds really cute to my ears.

Okay. It's nice to hear :-) Meursault2004 10:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inferred?[edit]

What does inferred mean in the context of the lead section? It should be made clear for people that don't know. Thanks - Taxman Talk 18:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well you'll have to ask Bubamara, I think ... Meursault2004 20:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, I tracked it down to this. Basically, an anonymous user (58.178.44.145) changed the 1st paragraph for the worse about 4 months ago. I reverted those offending edits. Thanks for catching that. Bubamara 02:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The jav and {{Script|Java}} Template[edit]

Hi, I am Y4n, I have made the jav template to support proper rendering of Javanese Script in wikipedia articles, since the {{Script|Java}} template has not been filled yet. And so, for displaying the Javanese characters in wikipedia articles, please consider using the jav template, or you can modify the {{Script|Java}} template here (still blank). Y4n (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Possible error in vowel chart[edit]

In the vowel chart under the Phonology section, /i/ and /u/ are marked as open vowels and /a/ is marked as a closed vowel. Shouldn't this be the other way around? Compare this with the full chart in the Vowel article. 85.250.169.45 (talk) 21:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sunan, Not Sultan[edit]

In Dialects of modern Javanese part, I found this words:

Sultan Pakubuwono X of Surakarta. Surakarta has been a center of Javanese culture, and its dialect is regarded as the most "refined".

It's lil bit incorrect because the ruler of Surakarta monarchy is not a Sultan, but a Sunan. It's different with its neighbor, Yogyakarta. Yogyakarta is a Sultanate, officially named Sultanate of Yogyakarta (Javanese: Kasultanan Ngayogyakarta), ruled by a Sultan, while Surakarta is a Sunanate, officially named Sunanate of Surakarta (Javanese: Kasunanan Surakarta), ruled by a Sunan. The titles are different. It's like comparing a Tsar with a King. It should be:

Sunan Pakubuwono X of Surakarta. Surakarta has been a center of Javanese culture, and its dialect is regarded as the most "refined".

I hope somebody can fix it. Thank you. Yofan Pratama P (talk) 22:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Materials and sources on Javanese language[edit]

English Javanese vocabulary (1920)

https://archive.org/details/englishjavanesev00egnerich

Javaansche spraakkunst (1919)

https://archive.org/details/javaanschespraak00kiliuoft

Dictionnaire javanais-francais (1870)

https://archive.org/details/dictionnairejav00favrgoog

Javaansch-Nederduitsch handwoordenboek (1875)

https://archive.org/details/javaanschnederdu00geri

Handleiding bij de beoefening der Javaansche taal (1886)

https://archive.org/details/handleidingbijd01hollgoog

Über die Kawi-Sprache auf der Insel Java: nebst einer Einleitung über die Verschiedenheit des menschlichen Sprachbaues und ihren Einfluss auf die geistige Entwickelung des Menschengeschlechts, Volume 3 By Wilhelm Freiherr von Humboldt, Johann Karl Eduard Buschmann

http://books.google.com/books?id=cwYJAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Über die Kawi-sprache auf der insel Java, nebst einer einleitung über die verschiedenheit des menschlichen sprachbaues und ihren einfluss auf die geistige entwickelung des menschengeschlechts (1836)

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac00buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac01buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac02buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac03buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac00unkngoog

Kawi-balineesch-nederlandsch woordenboek (1897)

https://archive.org/details/kawibalineeschn00tuukgoog

Kawi-Balineesch-Nederlandsch glossarium op het Oudjavaansche Râmâyana. Bewerkt door H.H. Juynboll. Uitg. door het Koninklijk Instituut voor de Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië (1902)

https://archive.org/details/kawibalineeschne00juynuoft

Bhrata-Yuddha; oldjavaansch heldendicht, uitg. door J.G.H. Gunning (1903)

https://archive.org/details/bhratayuddhaoldj00gunnuoft

Glossaire explicatif des mots de provenance malaise et javanaise

https://archive.org/details/GlossaireExplicatifDesMotsDeProvenanceMalaiseEtJavanaise

Mémoire, lettres et rapports relatifs au cours de langues malaye et javanaise fait à la Bibliothèque royale pendant les années 1840-41, 1841-42, et à deux voyages littéraires entrepris en Angleterre, pendant les années 1838 et 1840 (1843)

https://archive.org/details/mmoirelettreset00dulagoog


http://www.lexilogos.com/english/javanese_dictionary.htm

Rajmaan (talk) 14:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for the list. I just found it out today. See also the resources that I've put in Commons: c:Early_Javanese_books, where I've uploaded 1870, 1875, 1886, 1903 in your list, among 50 others. But I haven't know about the 1920 before (it's rather hidden under "English" language there), and the 1919 spraakkunst (I have the same title, but from 1835 and 1843), so thank you for that. The Kawi-Balinese, unfortunately, doesn't fit in this collection. Bennylin (talk) 14:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
PS: for anyone interested to join the digitization project of those resources, you can go to oldwikisource:Jv and start transcribing there. Your work will be greatly appreciated. Bennylin (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Transliteration[edit]

I've noticed many "wrong" words here, so I decided to use å to differentiate Javanese words.

First, In "number" section, I've noticed that there is: 20 = rong puluh - kalih doso, the editors use doso instead of dasa/dåså. The word doso is absolutely wrong/false, because the right/true one is dasa(read: dåså)

Second, the word Kromo and Madyo, it's also wrong, because the word should written in Kråmå(Krama) and Madyå(Madya).

Third, Javanese language recognized vocal "a, å, â, i, ì, u, ù, é, è, ê, o, and ò" in order to avoid mispelling/pronouncing, so I decided to use "å", for example, in Javanese there is a word "lara" that should be pronounced "lårå", but most people that always written "loro" instead of "lara"/"lårå", "lårå" means "illness", and "loro" means "two". so, å and o is different think in Javanese.

Sorry for bad English, I'm Javanese speaker.--Mufidkce (talk) 10:26, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Java country anguage[edit]

Tunggu Sivashankar.k (talk) 08:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Krama[edit]

Can somebody verify this, or explain it? "Krama (ꦏꦿꦩ). The polite and formal style. It is used between those of the same status when they do not wish to be informal." To me it seems the more common use case of krama is not this, but the ones list after this sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.85.95 (talk) 07:52, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

official status on infobox[edit]

Since javanese language is never recognized as official language for any country or province of any country. Also javanese language is not recognized official minority language anywhere. it even mentioned on List of largest languages without official status. can we just remove the content of |nation= and |minority= parameter of infobox. (Ckfasdf (talk) 01:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC))[reply]

@Ckfasdf: Good you bring this up. We can either immediately remove the entries, or tag them as unsourced and remove them after some time has elapsed. In the case of Suriname, I couldn't find a source that confirms a recognized or protected status. To the contrary, the sole official language is Dutch, whereas the other spoken languages until now do not enjoy a special status, in spite of efforts towards that goal since 2011 ([1]). –Austronesier (talk) 10:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier: it may be official language of yogyakarta Sultanate, but that sultanate don't really have any executive/legislative power outside sultanate and it is located and part of SR yogyakarta province in Indonesia (which official language is Indonesian), so I believe we can safely remove content of |nation=. However for |minority=, I agree with your suggestion.(Ckfasdf (talk) 20:28, 17 October 2019 (UTC))[reply]
@Ckfasdf: Done. Btw, is there any Indonesian province where Javanese has an officially/legally recognized or protected status? In such a case, we could actually add Indonesia to the minority parameter. –Austronesier (talk) 08:11, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier: there are 3 provinces where majority are native speaker of Javanese (Central Java, East Java,SR Yogyakarta). after I look it up, only central java have a specific regulation about javanese language, javanese script, and javanese literature (link here), but the purpose of javanese language as mentioned in that regulation is to promote the usage of javanese language in the region, serve as regional identity, and complement indonesian language for govt use. East Java do have a regulation about education of regional languages (Javenese and Madurese) (link here). So I guess you can say that it is recognized in both provinces. However since Javanese people is actually majority in Indonesia (70% of population), I dont know whether it is fit in |minority= (Ckfasdf (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2019 (UTC))[reply]
@Ckfasdf: No parameter applies here if taken literally, because this is one of the few cases in the world where a majority language has no official status at the national level. Maybe Uanfala can help who is both linguist and template editor. –Austronesier (talk) 12:01, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that most of the time I can't help with infobox stuff. Maybe bring it up on Template talk:Infobox language, or ask kwami? – Uanfala (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, no idea. I know Javanese is the language of daily interaction in much of C/E Java, but know nothing of the political situation. @Ckfasdf:, where did you get the figure of 70%? Leclerk (though granted he's just going off Joshua Project) has it as 35%, with Javanese and Sundanese together half the population. Though that's the ethnic number, and it's only assumed that the speaker populations are the same. But Jérôme Samuel (2005) notes 21% speak Indonesian nationally, mostly in the cities (e.g. it's 63% in Jakarta) -- I assume that has to be the native-speaker pop -- in which case, assuming Javanese is spoken by 35% of the non-Indonesian speakers, Javanese is actually 27~28%. (Though Java outside Jakarta is less affected by the switch to Indonesian, so it may be higher than that.) — kwami (talk) 20:25, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwamikagami: - my mistake... I mixed up percentage of muslim and percentage of javenese... according to Statistics Indonesia, javanese people is around 40% [link here]. At any case, it still majority in Indonesia and I believe more speaker of Javanese than Indonesian (Ckfasdf (talk) 10:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC))[reply]

That's the ethnic figure. The speaking population is lower, presumably because of the shift to Indonesian in the cities. I just found a good source, only 10yrs out of date. Table L4.1 'Jumlah Penduduk Usia 5 Tahun ke Atas menurut Bahasa yang Dipakai Sehari-hari di Rumah' in Kewarganegaraan, Suku Bangsa, Agama dan Bahasa Sehari-hari Penduduk Indonesia (summary of the 2010 cenus) gives the numbers for the languages spoken at home. Javanese and 'Cirebon-Indramayu' are spoken by 33.23%, Indonesian by 19.94%, Sundanese by 15.14%. But Indonesian was spoken at home by only 10.73% per the 1990 census. At that rate of growth (4.6% a decade), it could be a quarter by now. Add in the 10% who speak some other form of Malay, and Malay's spoken by about a third of the population as well. And some more of the shift to Indonesian has presumably been at the expense of Javanese, though more likely in the Javanese colonies in those parts of the archipelago where Indonesian is advancing most quickly than in east-central Java. It will be interesting to see what the 2020 census finds.

Re. my counting regional Malay above, the law that provides for young children to be taught in their native languages (no. 12/1954, Title IV, Article 5) doesn't apply where that language is close to standard Malay, and Minangkabau is mentioned specifically. I didn't even count Minangkabau among the 10% of regional Malay -- it would add another 2%. So, given the definition in the educational law as to what counts as Malay, that's at least 32% in 2010, plus smaller groups that overlooked, like presumably Iban. So Malay and Javanese were close to tied in 2010, and Malay's presumably the plurality language now. — kwami (talk) 19:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of plurality, what about if we take minority simply to mean the opposite of majority? Which makes every language of Indonesia a minority language. So we can add Indonesia to |minority=, specify the provinces involved, and add the sources mentioned by Ckfasdf. Agree? –Austronesier (talk) 13:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I would expect the provinces there, presuming the sources hold up. I have little idea what this param is used for, as I've hardly ever used it myself. Don't know about Malaysia either. — kwami (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
refer to Template:Infobox language, explaination of |minority= is list of countries in which it is a recognised minority language. This is intended for legal protection and similar de jure recognition, not simply being listed on a census and other de facto recognition.. so this parameter refer only to country, and based on that definition i assume we can safely remove that parameter as Javanese is not recognize at any country level. And regarding malaysia, the only official language there is malay language [2] (Ckfasdf (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2019 (UTC))[reply]

Origin of Krama[edit]

Where did these words even come from. They don't seem to have cognates with other Austronesian languages. Are they loans from pre-Austronesian Indo-Pacific languages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.206.181.191 (talk) 00:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This talk page is not a forum. But to reformulate your point: yes, this article should have some more info about how Krama vocabulary was shaped. There are some sources about it, maybe some editor (including me) will find the time to make these additions. (Spoiler: no, Krama vocabulary was not built by means of borrowing from "Indo-Pacific" languages.) –Austronesier (talk) 09:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First of all,no.

Some Kråmå Javanese word are of Sanskrit origin like "soca",meaning "eye" with "måtå" being its Ngåkå counterpart,meanwhile some are just Ngåkå words that have its last syllable changed with "-nten" or /-njing" suffix like "dinten" meaning day with "dinå" being its Ngåkå counterparts.

I hope that's helps.I might add this into this article. Rena Suryawati (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On topic of sample text in Pegon Arabic script[edit]

Hi, I've seen that the Pegon Arabic writing for the sample text has been marked with a tag. Javanese Pegon has quite a lot of available research material as well as teaching material available to follow. It's been in the recent decade or two, standardized.

Below are the sources.

BasilLeaf (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protection of this page[edit]

Please, help me admins to protect the page because I look at the history, there's an IP address right there. Some registered users (confirmed users) are undoing edits by the disguised sockpuppet (IP address) edit warring with another sockpuppet. Arief Azazie Zain (talk) 12:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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