Talk:Les Troyens

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Untitled[edit]

I notice that in the Berlioz quotation regarding The Aeneid Aeneid is mispelled Aenid, and that the translation of the same passage in the external links uses different phraseology, but the Aeneid is spelled correctly. Is this mispelling an error in Viajero's transcription, or is it spelled this way in the original translation? ~CS 00:34, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Complete or Near Complete?[edit]

The article on Berlioz refers to Colin Davis's Recording of Les Troyens as being "near complete." Here, it is called "complete" (which is what I always understood to be the case). Which is it? (Perhaps the answer is that the new prelude composed when the last three acts were done as Les Troyens à Carthage was not included.)

38.117.238.82 22:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptian drum[edit]

Does the "Slave Dance" call for an Egyptian goblet drum? Badagnani (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The score calls, in no. 33, ballet: Pas d'Esclaves Nubiennes (from Act IV), for a "tarbuka." Badagnani (talk) 01:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation[edit]

If it's La bohème and not La Bohème, why is it Les Troyens and not Les troyens? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 02:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can't explain why, but we've been following New Grove Opera, and that is the way they capitalize those titles in the works tables for Berlioz and Puccini. Perhaps Troy is considered more important than Bohemia because of it's great age. Or more likely because the bohemians in La bohème are not actually from Bohemia. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Section Recordings[edit]

Would it not be advisable to split off the "Recordings" section to a separate Discography article? 81.83.141.139 (talk) 12:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John Eliot Gardiner and the saxhorns[edit]

An anecdote once heard on BBC Radio 3, date unknown, I think from the man himself. (A French (Parisian?) museum had earlier reacted with shock to his suggestion that he borrow instruments from their collection for the purpose of actually playing them.) Narky Blert (talk) 20:38, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Petit[edit]

On Wikipedia, in Macbeth, the creator of Banquo in 1865 is given as Jules "Giulio" Bilis-Petit; for Les Troyens here the original Narbal is given as Jules "Giulio" Petit.

On the French opera site Art-Lyrique 'http://www.artlyriquefr.fr/dicos/Theatre-Lyrique%20chanteurs.htm' the singer is given as PETIT Jules Emile; in T J Walsh's book on the Théâtre Lyrique he gives him as Jules Petit. Unless there is evidence that he was an Italian working in France I would suggest that "Giulio" is simply an Italian translation of Jules in use in the data sources for that site and not correct. (I have no idea what "Bilis" is) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to Kutsch & Riemens his name was Jules-Émile Petit (born 9 May 1837, Méru; died June 1886, Paris). After leaving the Théâtre Lyrique in 1865, he appeared in French provincial houses, but also at the Royal Opera in London and in Italy at La Scala and in Rome. Maybe he used Giulio in Italy. The Mellen Opera Index (1993) also gives "Bilis-Petit" as Banco in the revised Macbeth (21 April 1865), although his name is only listed as Petit in the libretto [1]. He also was a student at the Paris Conservatory (Pierre 1900, p. 828). --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:59, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments, and for the revisions. As he is also (correctly) listed as a creator on Mireille maybe he deserves a short stub? I see in Walsh that his appearance in the French premiere of 'Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde' was praised (as was his Narbal) so maybe he should have an article? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree (hence the redlink), but the list of things to do just seems to get get longer and longer, and I'm basically fairly lazy. I've always been very grateful that the Wikipedia has no deadlines! --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Hector Berlioz, Les Troyens à Carthage vocal score cover - Restoration.jpg to appear as POTD soon[edit]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Hector Berlioz, Les Troyens à Carthage vocal score cover - Restoration.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 14, 2020. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2020-03-14. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:26, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Les Troyens
Les Troyens is a French grand opera in five acts by Hector Berlioz, with a libretto written by the composer himself based on Virgil's Aeneid. The score was composed between 1856 and 1858, but Berlioz did not live long enough to see the work performed in its entirety. However, the last three acts, substantially abridged, were performed during his lifetime under the title Les Troyens à Carthage by Léon Carvalho's company, the Théâtre Lyrique, in Paris in 1863. For this performance, Berlioz added an orchestral introduction and a prologue. He was not happy with the result, noting bitterly that he had agreed to let Carvalho do it "despite the manifest impossibility of his doing it properly. He had just obtained an annual subsidy of a hundred thousand francs from the government. Nonetheless the enterprise was beyond him. His theater was not large enough, his singers were not good enough, his chorus and orchestra were small and weak."

This picture shows the cover of the "second version, second issue" of the vocal score for Les Troyens à Carthage, published in 1863.Illustration credit: Antoine Barbizet; restored by Adam Cuerden

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Rôle, not "role [sic]", is appropriate for this article ...[edit]

... and should be the standard usage in formal writing. Autodidact1 (talk) 00:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Opposed. Standard English dictionaries do not list 'rôle' as either a formal or primary spelling. For example, in the OED the spelling 'role' is the primary form. Secondary forms include: rowle, roll, rôle, and roal (in that order). The New Oxford American Dictionary only gives 'role' and further states that it came into English in the 17th century from the obsolete French roule, translated as 'roll', referring originally to the roll of paper on which the actor's part was written. The American Heritage Dictionary gives 'rôle' as a secondary spelling and states it comes from French rôle, from Old French rolle, roll of parchment (on which an actor's part was written). WordReference.com gives 'role' for English and 'rôle' for French. I think we should stick with the primary English spelling 'role'. Are you proposing we adopt this spelling for all French operas on the Wikipedia? If not, why just for this one? --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Context is often more important than etymology, as in this article, and my usage is more appropriate and more elegant than yours. I don't have either the time or the inclination to edit every article about a French opera. My argument is valid since many secondary spellings are used in Wikipedia articles and are not reverted, although I've been tempted to do so. Get your nose out of your dictionaries and try to be more literary. Autodidact1 (talk) 08:19, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed - per Robert Allen. I have just undid Autodidact1's. - Jay (talk) 05:30, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

File:Hector Berlioz, La Prise de Troie score cover - Restoration.jpg scheduled for POTD[edit]

Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Hector Berlioz, La Prise de Troie score cover - Restoration.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for March 2, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-03-02. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Les Troyens

Les Troyens (The Trojans) is a French grand opera in five acts by Hector Berlioz, with a libretto written by the composer himself based on Virgil's Aeneid. The score was composed between 1856 and 1858, but Berlioz did not live long enough to see the work performed in its entirety. The first two acts were performed separately under the title La Prise de Troie. This picture shows the cover of the first-edition vocal score for La Prise de Troie, published in 1863.

Illustration credit: Antoine Barbizet; restored by Adam Cuerden

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how many acts[edit]

The cover La Prise de Troie says it has three acts. The cover for Les Troyens says it has two parts. The cover for Les Troyens à Carthage says it has five acts. The captions for all of the pictures disagree with the content of the pictures, and the discrepancy is not explained. How did the first two acts of a five-act opera become three acts? How did three acts of a five-act opera become five acts? Are there a total of 5 or 8 acts? Is it possible that someone made a translation mistake and La Prise is, like its cover says, the first three acts and Les Troyens à Carthage is the last two, for a total of five? If not, can this all be clarified in the article.

An "Act" is not a particularly firm division, especially when they're formed of multiple scenes. Act II has two scenes, so it's easy enough to make those two acts into three by just declaring each scene an act, and the remaining three acts have six scenes between them, and the title page says they're meant to be "five acts and a prologue" so it all checks out. Basically, every scene is now its own act, except the one scene in Act III, which becomes a prologue. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 16:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Featured picture scheduled for POTD[edit]

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Hector_Berlioz,_Les_Troyens_vocal_score_cover_-_Restoration.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 3, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-07-03. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 16:45, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cover of the vocal score of Les Troyens

Les Troyens is a grand opera in five acts by Hector Berlioz with a French-language libretto written by the composer himself based on Virgil's Aeneid. The score was composed between 1856 and 1858, but Berlioz did not live long enough to see the work performed in its entirety. However, the last three acts, substantially abridged, were performed during his lifetime under the title Les Troyens à Carthage by Léon Carvalho's company, the Théâtre Lyrique, in Paris in 1863. For this performance, Berlioz added an orchestral introduction and a prologue. He was not happy with the result, noting bitterly that he had agreed to let Carvalho do it "despite the manifest impossibility of his doing it properly. He had just obtained an annual subsidy of a hundred thousand francs from the government. Nonetheless the enterprise was beyond him. His theater was not large enough, his singers were not good enough, his chorus and orchestra were small and weak." This is the cover of the piano–vocal score of Les Troyens, published in 1863 by Choudens, with a lithographic illustration by Antoine Barbizet.

Lithograph credit: Antoine Barbizet; restored by Adam Cuerden

Voice type of Didon[edit]

@Chrisoko7: I tried to find a source to support your addition of the voice type 'soprano' to the role of Didon but could not. Just because some sopranos may be able to sing Didon does not mean it is a soprano role. And just because Anne Charton-Demeur sang high roles, such as Lucia or Donna Anna does not make her a soprano. Quite a few mezzos have an extended high end. Also, you do not know whether she transposed down some of the high notes when she sang those parts or even transposed entire arias to a lower pitch. When you make controversial changes like this, you must provide a source. Otherwise it constitutes original research (see WP:OR). --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the Großes Sängerlexikon (2003), and that book does classify Anne Charton-Demeur as a soprano. --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you found a source: literally her entire operatic repertoire consists of soprano roles, so for sure it was not the case that every time she sang, they transposed entire roles for her... Chrisoko7 (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think you are likely correct about Charton-Demeur. But many sopranos have sung mezzo roles, for example Carmen[2]. There is also Rosina in the The Barber of Seville. That does not necessarily mean the roles are soprano roles but does sometimes present a problem for the role tables. I guess no one has ever disputed that Carmen is a mezzo-soprano, but we did have some discussion about what to do with Rosina. The decision was to put 'contralto' in the role table, even though it is not often sung by one, and adding a very lengthy footnote. Regarding Didon, I remember hearing Jessye Norman sing both Cassandre and Didon in the same performance at the Met, when the usual Didon, Tatiana Troyanos, was ill. One problem with adding "soprano or mezzo-soprano" for Didon in the role table is that it misrepresents the cited source, which only gives "mezzo-soprano". If we can't find a source, some kind of note will need to be added or it should be deleted. Also, it seems likely to me that Cassandre is more often sung by a soprano than Didon is, so why would we indicate a soprano alternative for Didon and not for Cassandre? --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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