User talk:Dante Alighieri/clovis

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Please not that this is not a complete record of this issue, but only of that portion of it that resided on my Talk page. For a more complete record, please see: Talk:Clovis I, Talk:List of French monarchs, Talk:Merovingian, and User talk:Triton. It should also be noted that Triton was a pseudonym of the banned vandal User:Joe Canuck.

Sir, I certainly hope I have not hurt yours or anyone's feelings. But, I do admit that Ms. JHK sure hurt mine, but I know in her heart she is sorry. If I have offended you please point it out. I want to learn as much as I can and be a good contributor whose work won't be called nonsense and deleted only to find out it was fact -- again. Thank you for taking the time to point out my possible communication shortcomings. Maybe it is cultural. Triton

Mr. Dante Alighieri, your question: "It could go a long way to resolving this issue if you would confirm you cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Please realize that I don't particularly care where you're from of what languages you speak, except so far as they have bearing on the potential cultural/linguistic misunderstandings regarding the French monarch issue."

Thank you, but like User:Slrubenstein, User:Jlk7e and many others at Wikipedia, I prefer not to reveal my ethnic background. Race has no effect on one's ability to participate in Wikipedia. If I make mistakes in English please be kind enough to point them out. Helping me perfect my language skills is important and appreciated. Thank you, I look forward to working with you on this valuable project. Triton

Sorry, but these other questions are not relevant to my sincere efforts in the context of "question overload" that included you saying: "I must suggest the following: stop using language that seems to be designed to upset people." You say you have other issues I must answer. If those issues affect my performance, reflect on you badly or affect your ability to function, insult you or harm you, or make it impossible for you to function properly please say so. But such as this statement by you is an unwarranted use of my time because you did not read what I said yet you made an negative assertion against me

I actually didn't make a negative assertion against you. It would only be negative had I asserted that you did this knowingly, which I did not.


  • Also, if you carefully reread her original statement, JHK actually did not refer to your edits as misrepresentations or lies.

Mr. Dante Alighieri, I made no such statement that she said that about my edits -- ever. Check it out, sir.

You are correct, and I apologize. I joined this "conversation" past that point and I was not clear who had made the original submission that JHK was referring to, I assumed it was you. Nevertheless, you have, and I double-checked this time, been asserting that she called "another user" "a 'obtuse'" (sic), "a 'misrepresenter'", and "liar". As I stated above, this is not really the case. My above point stands, just replace you with another user.


  • Perhaps, Mr. User:Dante Alighieri, you should read. There are only two pages on which the discussion you intervened on were taking place. Before you accuse me of lying, would it not be better to do a simple check? Kindly click on the talk page for Clovis I and read Ms. JHK's words to another user who, if you check, informed Mr. Wales he was leaving because of abuse. Quote from Talk:Clovis I/archive1 with my bolding:
  • The statement about all prominent scholars considering the Merovingians to be French is at best a sad demonstration of obtuseness by a well-meaning amateur, at worst, a deliberate misinterpretation and/or outright lie.
This was my point, saying that X is "at best" A, and "at worst" B is not the same thing as saying that X ís both A and B, it's a range. The statement leaves open the possibility that it was not deliberate mistinterpretation or lying, and it is therefore improper to characterize the statement as JHK calling a user a liar. --Dante Alighieri

Mr. User:Dante Alighieri, sir, -- just as an additional point of interest on an extremely serious matter, you might also look at Ms. JHK's remarks about Canadians she made to Mr. User:Jacques Delson on his personal page that user:Maverick pointed out yesterday. However, sir, because her bigoted remarks were noticed by someone who voiced a complaint, a friend covered them up. (Note her USER page says: “People who know her know how to find her ...&#8221); Please go to User talk:Jacques Delson and you will see certain harmless looking remarks constructed to appear to be those of User Ms.JHK. They are found in the last six paragraphs (3 bulleted). Please then check the page history:

  • cur) (last) . . 23:03 29 May 2003 . . MyRedDice (paraphrasing JHK - let's not be anti-Canadian, eh? ;-))

Please check (last) and read the deceit perpetuated by User:MyRedDice (and I hereby repeat that this is deliberate deceit) in order to try to cover up Ms. JHK’s real remarks. He tried to protect himself by inserting the word in brackets (paraphrased) at the end of one of six paragraphs. Note that User:MyRedDice then inserted another comment from another page signed with Ms. JHK’s name. Putting this at the bottom of the altered fraudlent text labelling it truthfully as an ulogged user tries (feebly) to protect his legal position against being charged with fraud while making it appear that all the above harmless paragraphs were written by Ms. JHK.

Ms. JHK’s verbal abuse of Mr. Delson was such that he too left Wikipedia and if you look, that man's high quality contributions on "years in sports" were badly needed. I can only begin to guess at the huge number of hours and exhaustive detail he put in. Wikipedia needs contributors like him. Because of innuendo, I am obliged to protect my reputation. As such, I am currently compiling a list of Ms. JHK’s abuses that violate Wikipedia policy and natural decency plus beyond into unacceptable conduct that endangers Wikipedia itself. It is getting very, very, lengthy and shows a number of people who left because of her abuse or who have been so intimidated that they avoid her and refrain from fully participating. In addition to Ms. JHK's remarks about Canadians, I have found others that hover at the edge of racism and on these matters I assure you Mr. Wales will take the appropriate action to protect Wikipedia from very costly repercussions. Thank you, and may the Prophet bless you and have a joyous experience at Wikipedia. Triton 13:17 30 May 2003 (UTC)

And, sir, I write the way I write, and I try my best to constantly improve. If that is unacceptable, please have Mr. Wales tell me so. Even the remotest possibility of ethnic intolerance makes me very uncomfortable. I certainly do not want to upset anybody, but I will not tolerate them calling me names or degrading my honest attempts to contribute to Wikipedia. However, as I have already said in previous statements, I will never stoop to their level and call them names or degrade them. Have I degraded you, your work, or sworn at you as Ms. JHK did to me?

No, you haven't done any of those things... nor did I accuse you of those things.

It is easy for several people to ask me questions here or on other article talk pages that are so numerous, extensive, and cumberson that it becomes impossible to deal with and I will then be accused of being uncooperative and not answering questions. That sir, has happened before to others and unscrupulous people can easily use it as a tool to drive someone away. You sir, said I didn't answer all your questions knowing full well I have been inundated with massive amounts of questions and demands to respond to, which if you check, sir, I have done my very best possible. If my best is not good enough, please tell me. Your questions are far too lengthy, far too insignifacant in light of all that is going on and as seen above, on this one occasion at least, not founded on fact.

Well, I certainly consider my points concise and significant. I don't believe that you are in a position to complain about others' lengthy comments as you are certainly "guilty" of such "offenses" yourself. Also, some might think that you were implying that I was an unscrupulous person that was trying to drive you away. I trust you didn't mean that sentence to be taken in that manner.

I am very sorry, but any question at Wikipedia that requires someone to state their ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties, is inappropriate and in the United States, Great Britain and most major democracies, unconstitutional. If my cultural background results in my not fully understanding your cultural background, then I apologize but I do not feel it should prevent me from contributing to Wikipedia so long as I do my best and am honest and respectful. Do you agree or do you believe I should leave? And, do you wish to cooperate on articles by proving factual input? Thank you. Triton

Actually, you are quite wrong. I don't even know where to start. To put it quite simply, since Wikipedia is in no way, shape, or form connected to the government, it is absolutely not "unconstitutional" to make such an inquiry. And, as I pointed out above, it was you, not me, that made your culture an issue. I was simply offering you the chance to make your earlier claim of cultural misunderstanding a bit clearer. Furthermore, if you read my response immediately prior to this one, I did not even ask for your ethnicity, but simply if English was your native language. You may also want to reflect that I never suggested that your cultural background did or ought to prevent you from contributing to the Wikipedia, so I'm uncertain why you bring this up. As for cooperating on articles, I am attempting to improve the relations between yourself and several Wikipedians, although I must admit I am becoming less and less sure that this is an attainable goal.
Lastly, I must again point out that, despite the lengthy response to my above questions you again failed to address my points. I have attempted to do you the courtesy of giving you a point by point response to the issues that you have raised. As for the "innundation" of communications that you are experiencing, surely you realize that I have other things to do (and I have been doing them), but I see no reason that that should stop me from giving you the courtesy of full responses, and I certainly would not, as you did above, belittle someone's honest attempts at reconciliation. --Dante Alighieri 02:55 29 May 2003 (UTC)

Mr. Dante Alighieri, sir, you had some questions for me. I apologize for the delay good sir, but many issues you are cognizant of took priority. So long as they have nothing to do with my private affairs, please list them in a simple bulleted list on MY talk page and I will do my best to answer them within as quick a time as my exhausted brain can when I next come back to Wikipedia. Thank you and may you have a joyous experience at Wikipedia. Triton

Mr. Dante Alighieri, sir, thank you for the nice compliment about my improving English. However, as I told that very helpful Mr. User:John Owens, I try to improve with WORDWEB [1] on my computer that I use as often as possible. Apparently though, it is not the best. There are really smart people here who use big words at times or expressions I am not intricately familiar with, sir, so it can be tedious and hard to keep up at times. Nevertheless grammar still is a problem but I do my best and certainly appreciate your compliment. But, I am proud of my efforts. And I do want to answer your questions because at least one calls into question my integrity which, if you are not aware, is something Mr. Wales will not tolerate under any circumstances. I also want you to be aware of a cover up of bigoted, near-racist slurs that I am passing on to Mr. Wales. So, I am inserting one answer above regarding a charge of lying you made against me. Thank you again for the compliment on my efforts to present the good English.Triton

Triton, perhaps I should rethink my comment about your improving English skills, as you continue to "misiterpret" my remarks. As for calling question to your integrity, this is something which, if I have done, is certainly something you have done to me. As for Mr. Wales not accepting that, I believe you are wrong. It is common practice to enquire from "new" contributors as to their motives when they take actions that are, to some, unclear. There is quite a difference between asking someone if their intents are honorable and declaring that their intents are not. Incidentally, I'd like you to point out where I directly questioned your integrity, I can't seem to find it. Also, please note that when I speak of you or your potential motives I always use words like "seems" or "I think". This is, of course, because one cannot know for certain what is inside another person's mind. This is not, it seems, your policy. You make statements about me, my writing, and others as facts, not open to interpretation. Lastly, I certainly did not make a charge of lying against you, therefore making it impossible to answer such a charge. Were I a more paranoid person, I would suspect that you are deliberately misinterpreting me. As I am not that paranoid, I'll chalk it up to language and/or cultural misunderstandings. --Dante Alighieri 20:38 30 May 2003 (UTC)

-- Mr.User:Dante Alighieri, sir, you said: “Also, if you carefully reread her original statement, JHK actually did not refer to your edits as misrepresentations or lies. ……. My above point stands, just replace you with another user.”

  • Sir, You made a point that my charge of Ms. JHK using obtuse, misrep, liar was not correct. That makes me look like a liar.
  • We, Mr.User:Dante Alighieri, are, in my blurry eyes, not making sense. It seems to get murkier. I wipe the slate clean, state not once EVER, would or did I intend to insult you and I apologize to you, your mother, your father, your whole family, the dog, the cat, the camel, the horse, the flea in your dog’s ear, and anybody else you can name. I only ask you show me the courtesy of checking carefully before you put up any statement that others will see at Wikipedia, read and move on and, due to the massive volume of stuff, never see whatever page any correction might be on and will then have had a lie, or negative misconception of who I am and my motives. And, then that negative impression will be enhanced when they see or receive comments by some people who frequently act in a malicious manner such as this:
  • I don't know if you are aware of it, but there is a widespread belief that Triton is our old pal from hell, DW! Same pre-occupations. Same approach. Same abuse. Using the same images. Same refusal to say where the images come from. Same topics. Only a different name. Why can't he have a personality transplant to go along with each of his names? Heh heh. Slán. FearÉIREANN 05:40 27 May 2003 (UTC)

This is filled with lies. Would you like proof? Would you like more examples of this type of thing going on about me and others. Now, Mr.User:Dante Alighieri, sir, if another User then makes an accusation that as an example: Triton doesn’t listen and all he does is accuse blah, blah, blah. And, let’s say that person places his message on another users page about how difficult that user Triton is and another puts it on the Wikien L list, (and I read every single one) someone replies about the new “troll”, another says, “boy he edited the same page as User: John Doe, another says, oh no! and so on. Then sir, you will agree, I hope, that malicious people mixed with your honest error when dealing with someone like me who takes a strong position will, with lightning speed at Wikipedia, become “LABELED” and then it becomes fact to dismiss anything that awful user Triton says and if someone actually has done something totally wrong to Triton, well ….. we can overlook that because he is such an awful troll --- why doesn’t he just go away? And then people who only take a cursory glance say, God what a troublemaker! And sir, Mr.User:Dante Alighieri, that is why no one says a word to Ms. JHK about her horrific conduct to a lot of Wikipedia users that if she did it to you I think you might surely react. Wouldn’t you? And if her response was to go to Wikien L and put you down, lie and distort facts while all the while proclaiming herself a genius. And those others must always protect her because one day they themselves might need protection and she owes them. Example: User: MyRedDice and what he did for Ms. JHK to hide her bigotry. And sir, I will never accept bigotry, ever. It just makes me fight harder. Take a look now at the new way of humiliating a user. A new file has been made called User talk:Viking/ban that will keep showing up on the Recent Changes list as many times as their attacker(s) wish. When someone not involved sees that, what is the impression of UserViking? But in a eworld of justice without manipulation and distortion, if a total stranger came along and looked only at Ms. JHK’s conduct, what would they think of Wikipedia as a place to contribute? I will never back down from bullying. Sometimes in life we must speak out and persevere no matter what kind of prison they put you in. Nelson Mandela did. Think about it. Thank you, no response necessary.Triton 22:33 30 May 2003 (UTC)

Well, if there is no response necessary there will be none given. This concludes my portion of our correspondence, as I believe was your intent. --Dante Alighieri 22:44 30 May 2003 (UTC)