Talk:Sinn Sisamouth

Help improve!

After creating this article then improving it into a comprehensive article that is ranked number 1 on Google. I still can't believe no one has edited this article to improve it... Squash 00:34, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

List of Songs

Don't know how many people check out this article...doesn't seem to get edited a lot. Just wondering how far to go with the list of songs. I got hundreds of them (literally), this list could get HUGE.--WilliamThweatt 03:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi William, a good estimate of mine would be roughly 1200 more songs. Squash 11:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Squash, good to meet you. Happy New Year, by the way. 1200 is about what I was thinking also. Between my CDs, MP3s and Cassettes, I currently have about 800 including many of the duets. My question was, should we include the entire list or just the most popular/well known ones?

Also, about the transliteration of the Khmer into English, what's with the hostility? We're all trying to make this the best WP article it can be so let's try to keep this civil. Here are a few suggestions:

• First of all, there is no officially "proper" way to transliterate Khmer words using the English alphabet. What is important is that we are both consistent (ideally accross all of WP, but especially within an individual article) and systematic (each sound in Khmer is given an equivilent in English which is used consistently for that sound where ever it occurs). There are many systems that are currently in use by different organizations.
• The most common system in use, and arguably the most accurate, is the one that I was using which is based on the IPA combined with standard, simple American English sounds developed by Huffman and Proum to describe Khmer in linguistic articles. This system is also used by the US government in transcribing Khmer immigrants names into English letters.
• The system the previous editor used was an exact, one-for-one, transliteration based on letters not sounds. For example in their system, a Khmer word like "chan" (moon) would be written "jantr" because in Khmer it is written with the "cheurng toa" and "cheurng roa" consonants at the end to reflect that it is an borrowing from Sanskrit/Pali. However, this does not provide accurate information on how to pronounce the word because the "t" and "r" are not pronounced. (Thai has the same problem, which is why, even though this is the official Thai government policy of Romanization, it is not used in the West)
• I'm not sure what system (if any) you used. For example you transcribed the word "oun", ("darling, honey") as "aun". This seems based on nothing other than your preference. It is not based on transliteration of the Khmer letters, nor is it based transcription of the sounds involved. "Aun" pronounced in English would sound like the Khmer word "to duck down" as in "daə aun".

I could give other examples but the point is we were actually "using our brains", as you so diplomatically put it, and applying consistent accepted standards in our transliteration. Were you? I am temtped to revert, but, as I mentioned above there was more than one system in use. I will go through and convert everything to the same system. In the meantime, go out, eat some "num ansawm" and enjoy New Year--WilliamThweatt 16:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks you William, I did not know it was you who edited this article as an anonymous user. I think we may need to reconsider the list, and change it to "Notable", since the list of Sinn Samouth's songs is huge

The names I have provided are the ones that used popularly from song websites, they in that form as Khmers are used to that Khmer romanization.

I have heard this system, but it surely it would not be a pain to get the list of songs as comprehensive as possible then change the spelling

.

I didn't write oun as "aun" that was the work of an anonymous user, I always write (darling, honey) as "oun" to.

As for now I will revert my edits, and concentrate on the song list. Thank you for your time to deal this problem with me, it is much appreciated. Squash 03:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If the list begins to get impractically long, it may be worth considering moving all but the most popular to a subarticle, Discography of Sinn Sisamouth or List of songs performed by Sinn Sisamouth, etc. It's fine for now, though. GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 03:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer to see all that information on an external link website. The discography is un-encyclopedic because one, it does not come from a reliable source such as a published book or scholarly journal and perhaps there never will be, and two, the names of the songs utilizes so many different ad-hoc romanization styles so the sorting order is very messed up. For instance, one of the songs starts with 'gonya' I assume this is more commonly romanized as 'kanya' and can be listed under K instead. --Dara 18:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

GoKhmer.net reference

The main reference for this article is from a now-defunct website called GoKhmer.net. The referenced article was retrieved via Archive.org. However, at 04:14, 25 December 2006, User:Bvsamnang (Talk | contribs) inserted the entire text of the article just before the discography section. The article itself is sourced from "CAM-NEWS (Cambodian Newspaper), "Roam-lerkpee sdach chamroeang Khmer Sin Sisamouth" Issue No. 79 p.26 &33 (2/12/96-2/25/96), Issue No. 80 p.26 &33, (2/26/96-3/10/96), Issue No. 81 p.26 &33 (3/1 1/96- 3/24/96)." — WiseKwai 07:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi readers, Khmerster (newbie) here. i've posted on Samouth anonymously before. Look forward to read from other contributors. (16 June 2007)

Hello scholars and fans, I just added a request for verification of the mention of the Khmer Republic TV interview of Sinn Sisamouth. Is this a publicly available interview? If so, can some sort of reference be added? Thank you. (29 October 2008)

Hi 29 October 2008, Khmerster here. i hope someone else alive today saw that program too. i was a 15 year old high school student at the time and was thrilled to see the famed artist live on Khmer TV. From 1967 onward (when my family acquired a much prized TV set) i never saw Samouth performing in person ever, until that particular session. As i have indicated in the article, Im Song Seum, Huy Meas, Ros Serey Sothea etc.. did give live performance - but never Samouth himself. i think "Mae Oyw Ao Yoan" that Samouth sang at that performance was composed by Ma Lao Pi (whom i met in 1995 in Phnom Penh, when i served as a UN technical adviser at the National Bank of Cambodia). The sharp-tongued among us used to joke "Mae oyw Ao Yoan kaun peak bonn preah" to "Mae oyw ao yoan, Kaun peak ao yeut" (i.e. mum gave me a holy garment, i wore a t-shirt instead". [Khmerster 15 Nov 2008] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khmerster (talk • contribs) 01:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Rename article?

Should this article be renamed to reflect better romanization? There is no commonly accepted romanization of his name yet in third party publications (at least to my knowledge). So this isn't like renaming an article of another more well documented Cambodian person or places, for example changing Khieu Samphan to Khiev Samphanor Phnom Penh to Phnum Penh (in accordance to some romanization tables), in these situations it would be wrong because they have long established use.

Use of the digraph th is incorrect here because that is not pronounced like the letter Greek Theta neither is it an aspirate T. The "ou" in Sisamouth can be a little ambiguous to some people. In the name Norodom Sihanouk or Oudong, it represents a "short u." In Japanese romanization, 'ou' represents a "long o". That part of his name is suppose to sound like a "short o." And is there a need for two Ns in Sinn?

If you ask me, I would like to see it changed to Sin Sisamot (using the UNGEGN romanization but leaving out the diacritics) since it is more 'neutral' if you get my drift. Romanization should be considered for all languages that use any form of the Latin script (French, German, Italian, Dutch, etc), not just for English speakers. By actually romanizing (and not a whack form of romanization), his name can be more consistently written in all those languages' Wikipedia and at the same time be close to the actual pronunciation of his name in the eyes of all those readers. --Dara 14:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

My 2-cents worth: with regard to reworking Samouth's name in the title - i'm a bit uneasy simply because a lot of people out there know him as Samouth etc.. rather than by another spelling. They will also find it hard when doing internet searches. i guess it pays to stick to what has in the past accepted. Anyway the man himself would have objected to see his name changed. A case in point is how some foreigners have started to use the word "Khmai" instead of "Khmer". (a) Good luck to them and (b) i find it rather patronizing when they tell us how we should spell our names. Khmerster.

I think we should go with the pronunciation used by Dengue Fever in "Sleeping Through the Mekong", which is the one that is already used on this article. I obviously can't speak for an entire country, but I think that Dengue Fever is the most common means of introducing non-Cambodian Americans to Sinn Sisamouth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfflyer56 (talk • contribs) 05:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Your romanization is wrong. "Khieu Samphan" is really romanized as "Kiew Samphan" (i think) and this must be Syn Sysamut.--125.25.81.139 (talk) 15:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Reply:Sinn Sisamouth is correct. This is how they write the name.--110.49.251.240 (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Separate Discography page?

I have seen bands with WAY shorter discographies get a separate discography page. I think the Sinn Sisamouth is a prime candidate to get a separate page, considering the length of that monstrous section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfflyer56 (talk • contribs) 05:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, and have placed a tag on this article proposing a split. The article as it is now is 83KB long - considerably beyond the recommended maximum length (50-60KB) - and the discography section is the obvious candidate to split out. Robofish (talk) 15:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Mandolin?

The infobox identifies his instrument as mandolin, but it is not mentioned in the text. Was he a mandolin player? Dlabtot (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

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Citations and Verifiability

Sometime in the near future I hope to help with this article's shortage of sources and footnotes. If anyone sees this message, I am curious about the article's precise date for Sisamouth's death, as all sources that I've seen (admittedly in English) conclude that his exact fate is unknown except for disappearing during the Khmer Rouge years. Where did 18 June 1976 come from? If it is from an official/reliable Cambodian source, could someone please provide a reference? Same question for his date of birth too. If there are no reliable sources on the dates they may have to be replaced with loose estimates. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 20:05, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

There have been no responses in more than one month to my comment above. I plan to bring this article up to Wikipedia's specifications for readability and (most importantly) verifiability. I will seek reliable sources for all factual claims in the article, and anything that cannot be reliably verified will be noted as unconfirmed, including the date of Sisamouth's death if necessary. But admittedly I am constrained to English and French sources because I cannot read Khmer. Anyone with the necessary knowledge can add Khmer sources as they are found. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 14:22, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

I haven't had much luck finding print sources here in the US. There are some Khmer language documentaries available on DVD (many of them have been uploaded to Youtube as well). They are made by entertainment companies though ("official" media in Cambodia is de facto state-run) so I don't know if they would count as reliable. There are also long interviews with his wife available on Youtube, here and here, for example. I will continue my search for print sources.

On another note, there are some interesting biographical facts fairly well-known among Khmer but I've not added them because I can't find a reliable source for them. Sinn Sisamouth was at least half Lao and spoke Lao fluently. His given name, Sisamouth, is actually a Lao/Thai name (see eg Soi Sisamouth, the first ruler of the Kingdom of Champasak). Steung Treng province was part of Champasak until the modern era and during the time of Sisamouth's birth, the province was almost entirely Lao. To this day, the province still has a large Lao population. His mother was Lao and his father was either Sino-Khmer or Khmer-Lao. His wife speaks Lao as well in addition to Khmer; some of the interviews with her are actually in Lao instead of Khmer.

Also due to war, the disarray of the Cambodian government, and lack of enforcement of albeit weak copyright laws, none of his family have seen even a penny in royalties or profits from his music. See this news article discussing a charity concert for his family and other families of artists from his era.

In this interview, around the 3:40 mark, his wife talks about the last time she saw him during the Khmer Rouge regime and where/when she believes he died. I don't have a lot of time for Wikipedia any more, but maybe you or somebody else can use this info to improve the article or track down better sources.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 23:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

@WilliamThweatt: Thanks again for your help William. I did a great amount of work on the article today and can spice things up with some of your info. Once again, if anyone else reads this, I found many sources to verify Sisamouth's life story but some are not totally reliable, and if anyone has anything reliable in Khmer (or any language) please help improve the article. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 02:35, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

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