User talk:Ishu

Greetings! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you have questions or doubts of any sort, do not hesitate to post them on the Village Pump, somebody will respond ASAP. Other helpful pages include:

• Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers
• Wikipedia:How does one edit a page
• Wikipedia:Manual of style
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions

Have fun! --Jiang 21:32 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

Nisei vs. Nitai/Nidai

Could you shed some insights @ Talk:Nisei Japanese? --Menchi 06:34, Jul 31, 2003 (UTC)

List of ____ Americans

Some of your links to List of _____ Americans mistakenly link to List of Indian Americans. DHN 22:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Moving "West Asian" out of Asian American

West Asians do not identify as Asian. They identify as Middle Eastern in the USA. They are not officially part of the Asian race with the US Census Bureau. They are only included as part of Asia in some maps because Asia has been defined as the non-European part of Eurasia. -- Dark Tichondrias

This is partially false. Americans of Middle Eastern extraction do not identify as "white", but rather are identified as such by the U.S government. There is a fundamental difference. Technajunky 19:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Regards

Thanks for moderating the discussion.

Until about two weeks ago, all I knew about the issue was what I had casually heard, mostly in relation to the current issue of homeland security, profiling, etc. I got into a discussion with my wonderful, smart daughter, and did a quick google, finding contrarian arguments, some of which appear to have substantial validity, at least on first glance. Unfortunately, the WP page was confusing and self-contradictory, therefore uninformative and unreliable. I bought a copy of Malkin's book, but also used many other googled sources. It seems there are more every day, and one definitive conclusion is that this topic engenders strong feelings.

As I said to our other discussant, a difference of opinion, or a difference of perception does not inevitably equate to bigotry, racism, or prejudice. Each of us constructs a model of the world and the universe, to guide our operations. If our model is sound, our operations succeed. When our models differ, it does not imply anything about our intrinsic character — it is only about our perceptions, which can be distorted by our conceptions – our ideology. Ideology is the antithesis of objectivity, analysis and logic, and it can really screw up your model.

I’m just trying to work on my model. Regards - Topnife 20:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your invitation to me, and your confidence in me, to help with editing the internment topic. As I stated above, I have a relatively superficial understanding of the issue, based upon a brief research into the area in order to inform myself enough to have a friendly dispute with my daughter. My lifetime strategy has always been to immediately distrust "conventional wisdom", which was especially easy to do, when I saw the factual inaccuracies and internal contradictions of the topic on Wikipedia.

I've kept the topic on my watchlist, and have been interested to see the turmoil which has erupted lately. I have been ignorant of the internal politics which you describe, however. I'd like to believe that I have approached the question with intellectual objectivity. My libertarian concerns for the issue of constitutionality and individual liberty are counterbalanced by my abhorrence for historical revisionism and of racism (and reverse racism). Our liberties must be protected from external efforts to destroy them, while internally preserving them from corruption. (I am led to recall the quote from Vietnam: "We had to destroy the village, in order to save it.") Ad hominem attacks, and irrational name-calling demonstrate only that the originator lacks factual information to support his ideological position, and that he believes that thinking consists of rearranging his prejudices.

I must humbly decline (due to my perception of my own ignorance) the role of active editor, but I would participate in a dialogue on the comments section, aimed at orienting the topic around facts rather than emotions.

Humble regards, again.

Topnife 20:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I just found your new re-write of the internment topic. This is a MAJOR improvement on the prior version, and certainly argues the topic much more objectively than the previous writeup. I complement you on oganizing and developing an objective and balanced revision of a tendentious report. You've taken on an arduous task.

A couple issues come to my mind:

• I have seen it stated that aliens of German and Italian origin were interned by DOJ, regardless of their site of residence (i.e., not relocated, but essentially imprisoned). The article implies otherwise.

• The numbers of 112 - 120K persons relocated always state that 2/3 were American citizens. Granting that most adults were not allowed to become citizens, it appears that this fraction includes many minor children, who were relocated with their "alien" parents. It would obviously be impossible to relocate their parents and leave them behind. Therefore the statistic may have misleading implications.

• Were significant numbers of adult American citizens (of Japanese ethnic origin), either naturalized or native-born, subjected to the exclusion orders? (I understand this statistic may be difficult to discover).

• It's necesssary to somehow maintain a perspective on the state-of-mind which pervaded the decision process, and daily life, at the time. It's easy to look back now, and see that urgent decisions made at the time, sometimes with a background of racial bias (I think "racial hatred" may be too strong a term), were inappropriate by our current standards:

• Our cultural attitude toward racial bias has undergone a revolutionary change during the last 50 years. Flagrantly racist practices were ingrained, and were engaged in without even being conscious of them. As a teenager, I had furious arguments with my bigoted father, about his attitudes, and I hated his intransigence. I did not hate my father.
• Racially loaded news reports, cartoons, posters and daily conversations, with derogatory references to "japs" were the norm during the war. To judge 1940s expressions by 2006 standards is historical revisionism.
• The relocation decision was supported from the very top, by FDR, who has been documented to have had racial attitudes which we would today judge to be totally unacceptable.
• On the other hand, DeWitt is stated to have initially opposed relocation. The bigoted statements he later made may have been colored by several years of war with Japan, many thousands of American casualties, and also by a desire to agree with those who would be responsible for his career advancement. In other words, his statements have to be kept in context, just as should be the decision by many Japanese-Americans not to serve in the U.S. armed forces.

• I think it's unwise to explicitly support the analogy that has been made between the internment/relocation issue, and the present-day question of ethnic profiling with respect to terrorism. The analogy is imperfect, the present-day safeguards are far more stringent, and the consequences are very different. Making or re-iterating this connection is not a good argument.
• "Snow Falling on Cedars", while an emotionally moving book, was a work of fiction. I think it is not an appropriate historical reference.

Respectfully, Topnife 04:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

certain user

Dark Tichondrias? --Lukobe 00:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's hope for the best and prepare for the worst :) --Lukobe 05:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: Japanese American Internment

Fair enough. At least there is more attention being paid to the situation now. --tomf688 (talk - email) 23:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well if anyone starts up an edit war, I'm sure the page will be speedily reprotected then. --tomf688 (talk - email) 18:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

RfC

would you consider endorsing the HS dispute in the endorsement section? they have a 48-hour window to be endorsed. thanks Justforasecond 00:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Reorg

The TOC on the reorg looks good. Justforasecond 16:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

JAI Restructuring

I see you noticed my absence from the page. It's not that I've lost interest in the topic; honestly my attention has been elsewhere the last week or two. I really only got involved in the page in the first place in response to HS' actions, which worried me enough to respond. Since then I've gotten interested in the editing side of the process.

Overall your proposed reorganization looks good to me. As for whether restructuring is necessary to begin with, I think the idea does have some merit. The JAI article, as is, is clearly very crufty, with various users having added their input over the course of years. I don't think anyone has ever gone through and pulled out the incorrect, uncited, POV, poorly written, or self-contradictory stuff that has accumulated, and an article restructuring is the perfect way to do that. You seem up to the task (especially considering your long-standing interest in the article), and I therefore support your efforts in this regard.

This topic is clearly controversial, and any article on the topic will be controversial by extension. Putting the maximum possible citation into the article helps, but there will always be users who will argue POV based on omission or comission - HS seemed to be of the former type, as one of his earlier "retorts" implied that he recognized POV slant within the article, and decided the correct response was to add POV slant in the other direction. Although his strategy was clearly not appropriate, his actions seem to have been a catalyst for a process of deep revision which this article desperately needs.Ogthor 11:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Japanese American Internment

I read your restructuring of this article and I think it's excellent. Great job! Whiskey Rebellion 21:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

comment

hey ishu

come take a look at my policy proposal changes at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Three-revert_rule#Proposed_policy_changes

i think they could prevent a good portion of the conflict that comes with 3RR. comments are welcome.

Justforasecond 16:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Page move

Since you participated in the last survey, just a couple months ago, you may be interested to know there is yet another proposal to move Los Angeles, California. Jonathunder 05:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you kindly explain the reason you oppose Los Angeles from being named consistently with other world famous cities like Paris, London, New York City, Chicago and Philadelphia, and support it being disambiguated with a state like lesser-known cities that need disambiguation (like Hollywood, Florida)? Thanks. --Serge 17:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Appreciation

		Barnstar
		For your extensive and ongoing good work on the Asian American and Japanese American Internment articles here at wikipedia. Myasuda 02:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Naming Conventions poll

I'm confused. I've seen references to "Tariq's proposal" but when I scanned, I found JohnK's proposal that you supported (move 27 AP cities). Can you point me to the most recent statement of your proposal? If your proposal is inactive, I intend to oppose the current proposal in favor of reopening the discussion around a proposal I can support.

In the name of antidisruption, I am willing to support some such proposal, even though I otherwise support the comma convention. These debates are just a PITA, and the AP list provides a sufficient backstop and rationale as to which cities to include. Thanks for your contributions to this discussion. --ishu 04:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The proposal they are referring to is this one. Serge closed john k's proposal and my proposal because people were complaining there were too many proposals open concurrently, not because there was anything wrong with the other two. -- tariqabjotu 04:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Cities and styles

Newspapers and most print media have what are called style sheets, it's been a while so I may have the name wrong, that cover all issues that relate to presentation. This includes things like the number of columns used, fonts and sizes. It also defines how items will appear. One of the best examples of this in in USA Today where any reference to the United States is inclued as USA. My contention is that we are simply defining what style we will use to present the titles for any US city article. People throw around 'common name' which does not help to provide a consistant look and feel for US city articles. The MoS tries to do this at a very high level. My contention is that a well crafted style would meet the NC guideline of Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. For me, since many places require the use of a state, that all should have the state since it makes this second nature. It is better for all of these place names to follow a consistant format. We already do this with counties, so why not cities. We also have decided to aviod using the correct name for many places.
So if I have to define this as a style, ignoring exceptions for now, it be would something like. "US location articles are named as 'location, state'. Extra qualifiers like town, city or township are generally not used".
I know I did not do a good job explaining this, but I hope you better understand what I'm trying to get across. Vegaswikian 20:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think your points are valid. My only concern is that if you take that another step forward, it begs the question. should that standard become the general convention. It will be interesting to see what happens. Vegaswikian 22:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

help me

I have noticed a number of wikilinked dates in in-universe synopses such as Khan Noonien Singh. It seems to me that these links should be removed, as they refer to fictional events in the fictional universe, while the dates are linked to the real-life universe. I cannot find guidance readily available. --Ishu 21:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, I would suggest you to be bold and remove the fictional dates links and see if someone disagrees. I leave the helpme notice so you can have broader input. Happy Editing! -- lucasbfr ^talk 21:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And so I have. I appreciate additional input. Thanks! --Ishu 21:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur. I do think that broader ideas such as "20th cenutry" should remain linked, but individual years probably shouldn't be linked. However, you might want to check with Wikiproject Star Trek to see if they have dating conventions, or leave a note on the relevant article talk pages asking about it. -- Merope 21:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Granada War Relocation Center

On my way back to OK 2 years ago we stopped at the Granada War Relocation Center and looked the place over, and I have contributed to the wikipedia article.If you know anything about the camp, will you contribute?Saltforkgunman 02:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Naming conventions (settlements)

Thankyou for your comments on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements). I'm sorry to read your frustration in your last couple of posts, but I understand it completely. I intended my tag-teaming of answers with you as an indication that I believe we have similar views, and to encourage you. Sorry I didn't do it more explicitly.

I'm not good at detecting when it becomes time to just shut up and walk away. I think we've finally reached there, but any future comments by certain people will require a reply just so they don't end up succeeding by wearing the rest of us out. I wish they'd just stop and go back to expanding and improving the article contents. Thanks for assuring me that I'm not out on my own in believing the current US convention is close to right. The Australian form has been stable for almost 2 years without any complaints. If I find misnamed Australian town/city/suburb/village articles, I fix them, and I think I've had one followup/inquiry in that time. We've had bigger arguments about which state/territory some places are in than the form of the article name. Even that was really just a single misguided individual. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Using English

Hello - I'm contacting you because of your involvement with using English instead of foreign terms in articles. A few are trying to "Anglicise" French terms in Wiki articles according to current guidelines but there is some resistance (eg/: "Région => Region"; "Département => Departement"). Your input would be appreciated here. Thankyou. --Bob 16:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Asian American reply on my talk page.

Thanks! --Lukobe 17:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Re ...Template:Asian Americans

Hi Ishu,

...what if you were to put the Asia map in place of the blue field of stars?

Thanks for your suggestion. I think (1) I'd be able to do this and (2) the result should still qualify for upload, but wouldn't wish to do so unless there was a consensus – so thanks also for copying your idea to the WikiProject Asian Americans talk. Yours, David Kernow (talk) 08:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

.

Ethnic-group lists deletion discussions

Hi, I noticed you participated in one of these three deletion discussions:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of African Americans (3rd nomination),
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Chinese Americans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Caucasian Americans (second nomination).

All three discussions have similar issues but are leaning in different directions, so you may want to participate in the others, if only for the sake of consistencey and to avoid accusations that Wikipedians are being unfair to some group or groups (which is something that concerns me). I'm asking everyone who participated in one discussion to participate in the others. I apologize for bothering you if you already have participated in the others. Best wishes, Noroton 04:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for your comments. I have no problem if the article says something like "in the strictest sense, it refers only to citizens", "in official parlance, it refers only to citizens" or "in colloquial usage, it may also refer to non-citizens", etc. Actually, I think the version at present (which lists the dictionary definitions as the primary meaning and the "Encarta" definition as a secondary meaning) is not bad, although I would of course restrict the colloquial usage to "possessors of a lawful permanent residency", etc. as obviously it doesn't apply to illegal immigrants. But I think the lead-off section is basically fine as-is.

The section that is troubling to me is the "terminology" section. Some of the statements, i.e., "The most commonly-used definition of Asian American is the Census Bureau definition of Asian" are almost sure to be false, as the C.B.'s definition of Asian is all-inclusive, and as I understand it, if I were from Japan, studying at a university in America during a census year, I would be required to fill out a census, and would register as an "Asian". Clearly a Japanese person studying at an university for a couple of years is not an "Asian American".

The following sentence seems nonsensical, at least to me: "For example, restricting American to include only U.S. citizens conflicts with discussions of Asian American businesses, which generally refer both to citizens and non-citizens", and I fail to see how the analogy is at all factual, relevant or logical.

The last sentence of that section: "The census is a notable--if implicit--example of this definition of American, since the census counts all people regardless of citizenship or immigration status." appears to be a complete falsehood, because, as I've said, the census seems to either avoid use of the term "Asian American" altogether, or separate them, as in the example I posted on the talk page.

The rest of the article may need to be cleaned up. For example, the section on demographics uses the word "Asian American" to refer to census data, although "Asian" seems to be the official census terminology.

I get the feeling that this article may have been infected with some POV from America's Asian immigrant community. Bueller 007 18:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You can copy any parts of this that you think would be relevant/useful over to the Asian-American article's talk page. Bueller 007 10:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

scratch page

Hello. I was going through the new pages and saw you made Asian American/scratch. Usually people make scratch pages in the user namespace as a subarticle of their userpage, not in the mainspace. It's not bad, really, just custom. nadav 02:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Policy

WP:OWN & WP:NOR----^DarkTea 12:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed guideline for lists of people

After the discussions about Categorisations of people by a cross section of ethnicity and occupation, there has been similar discussions for lists of the same nature, so an editor has proposed a new guideline on this. Please take a look and comment if you have any suggestions:

Wikipedia:Proposed guideline for lists of people by ethnicity, religion, and other cultural categorizations

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Manzanar

Please take a look at the new Terminology debate section on the Manzanar article. I know it differs from what you're doing on the Japanese American internment article, so I'm interested to know your thoughts on the issue. Thanks! Gmatsuda 18:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of Asian Americans

List of Asian Americans, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that List of Asian Americans satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Asian Americans and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of List of Asian Americans during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Leuko 17:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Ishu/jai

User:Ishu/jai, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ishu/jai and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Ishu/jai during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Invitation

Hi, I noticed your contributions and thought you might be interested in joining WikiProject Asian Americans.

If you are interested in Asian American-related themes, you may want to check out the Asian Americans Portal.
If you are interested in contributing more to California related articles you may want to join WikiProject Asian Americans (signup here). ~~~~

Asian American infobox discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Infobox Image discussion 2012. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Infobox image discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Infobox ethnicity representatives. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

2012 Asian American representative approval period (Now until 18 December)

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Representative approval. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Notification of automated file description generation

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This notification is placed on your talk page because a bot has identified you either as the uploader of the file, or as a contributor to its metadata. It would be appreciated if you could carefully review the information the bot added. To opt out of these notifications, please follow the instructions here. Thanks! Message delivered by Theo's Little Bot (opt-out) 12:21, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Nanase Kiryu

Hi! It seems you recently created an unreferenced biography of a living person: Nanase Kiryu. The community has decided that all new biographies of living persons must contain a reliable source that supports at least one statement made about the person in the article as per our verifiability policy. Please add references as soon as possible. Thanks! --LaraBot (talk) 00:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you and invitation

Thank you for your contributions to women's football/soccer articles. I thought I'd let you know about the Women's Football/Soccer Task Force (WP:WOSO), a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of women's football/soccer. If you would like to participate, join by visiting the Members page. Thanks!

Hmlarson (talk) 22:06, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Re: Request for comment

Done Transcendence (talk) 00:45, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Ishu. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. Mdann52 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Ishu. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

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ArbCom 2017 election voter message

Hello, Ishu. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

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Discussion at Talk:Asian Americans#Lead section

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian Americans#Lead section. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar

As a member of WikiProject Asian American I present to you this barnstar for your past contributions that fall within the scope of the Wikiproject. Your contributions are some of the earliest contributions in articles which WikiProject Asian Americans have sought to improve, and thus serve as a foundation for us to build upon. May all who see this recognize your contributions to Wikipedia, and hope to emulate your edits. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Asian Americans in science and technology

Hello, Ishu. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Asian Americans in science and technology, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:

1. edit the page
2. remove the text that looks like this: {{proposed deletion/dated...}}
3. save the page

Also, be sure to explain why you think the article should be kept in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you don't do so, it may be deleted later anyway.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)