Talk:Masurians

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Older discussion[edit]

Happy new years you guys and stay cool. You all belong to the european community now. The time for nationalistic and fascistic ideas is over now. The aim of wikipedia is to produce neutral information and is no platform for nationalistic propaganda. So you should not just delete information without comment. Maybe the better way is to discuss first before deleting. Obviously this site is quite controversy and the meaning of "mazur" is different for polish and for former mazurian inhabitants. Maybe this site could contain both sides of view and be a place for communication and peace, not for hatred and isolation. - Unfortunately this text was also deleted by space captain without comment, I would appreciate him to do something constructive on this site. Europa

Hello! I put them on the bottom of this page. I would never delete such words of wisdom, with or without comment. And the name is Space Admiral.

Congratulations to your quick promotion. Nevertheless I would appreciate you not just to copy, paste or delete, but explain why you do so. For example I do think, the example about germaniosation belongs to the site germanisation or Oletzko. Europa

Sweetie, I would appreciate if You didn't post personal messages in articles but in their respective "Talk" pages. Failure to do so will always result in my immediate action without a question, warning, or "explanation". According to the definition, self-explanatory actions don't require explanation. Would You like me to explain this? Space Cadet 19:09, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just call me Europa. This was necessary, because you just repetitively paste parts in the text and delete others. This is definitly not self-explenatory. Europa

And You just call me Space Cadet. You started name calling first. You're also too lazy to look for explanations yourself (on talk page or on history page, sometimes not on the article in question but on related ones), but want to have everything on the silver platter. Christ, You were even to lazy to check the bottom of the "Talk" page, before You wrongly accused me of deleting Your comment. I respect what You think about the "germaniosation" bit, but it's just Your opinion, just like it is my opinion that your attitude, patronization, inattention to detail and name calling - don't belong in WIKI! Space Cadet 20:05, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Flaming does not belong in wikipedia. Europa

Exactly! You're learning! Good! Space Cadet 20:23, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Mazurs from the for century independent duchy of Masovia took refuge in (East) Prussia between XIV and XVII centuries, due to them having converted to evangelism and the annexation of Masovia by Catholic Poland around 1600's. The Masurians remained facefull Prussian-Germans, when after WW I by the Treaty of Versailles large German territories in the east was handed over to Poland by the allies. In a League of Nations plebiscite the Eastprussian Masurians voted more than ninety percent to stay with Germany against Poland. After WW II a large part of Masurians along with millions of other Germans were forced out of their homeland, which was divided between Poland and Soviet Union. Some Eastprussian inhabitants of the Masurian region managed to stay, despite greatest hardships and severe persecutions by the communist Polish administation, which took over eastern Germany in 1945. They were classified as authochtones by Poland. After the collaps of the Iron Curtain the Masurian Lakes Region has once again become an area of recreation travel.

  • This is an article about meaning of the word Mazur not about plebiscite in Masuria.

Example of germanisation: Oletzko County refers to historical East Prussia County with capital in Oletzko. The county was populated by Masurs, ethnic Polish group. In the process of germanisation, the number of Polish-speaking people decreased.
1818 - over 90% of population
1852 - 65%
1861 - 58%
1890 - 46%
1900 - 33.5% (Prussian census)
1890 - 19%

In 1888, the Polish language was completely forbidden in schools of all levels.

  • This is an article about meaning of the word Mazur not about germanisation in Masuria.

The information introduced by 66.47.62.78 are obviously false:

M1. azurians could not take refugee because of religous freedom because:

  • they started to settle in Prussia 200 years before Martin Luther and Zwingli were born.
  • even after Prussia became protestant Poland was much more tolerant. It was necessity as Catholics constituted less than 40 percent of populatiion. There was full religious freedom and protestant were able to develop their confession in Poland without any problems. In the end of 16th century lots of Polish nobles were protestants as well as majority of population of many cities. Poland was exile for thousands religious dissidents from all around Europe (for example Jews and Mennonites).

In contrary in Prussia existed intollerant rule "Cuius regio, uius religio". Remember that Mennonites escaped from Ellbing area (they used to live there for 200 years) after this city was annexed by Prussia in 1772.

The first example of institutional religious persecutions in Poland was in 1662 when Polish arians were forced to emigrate from Poland. The official reasn was that they collaborated with Swedes in the time of the Deluge.

2. This is English encyclopedia not German one. Masurenland in English is Masuria. User:Yeti

Conrad, a ruler of the duchy of Masovia in the 13th century, made several attempts to conquer the Prussians. He had already occupied some of Prussia's territory and the Prussians were in the process of regaining their land, when Conrad called the papal knights, the Teutonic Order, to come to his aid. Over the centuries settlers and refugees came to Prussia from many European countries including Mazovia, which was annexed by Poland by 1600.

1. It is not article about history of Masuria. The information above are false. I have explained why. If you do not agree with me, please didcuss it.

The people in Masovia are called in Polish Mazury. Perhaps the most famous Masovian was Cimburga of Masovia. She married Ernst den Eisernen and the couple became the parents of emperor Friedrich III, who for a time co-ruled the Holy Roman Empire with his son , the emperor Maximilian I.

1. Mazury is the name of country rather than people. 2. There were lots of famous people from Masovia. Cimburga of Masovia deffinitelly is not the most famous of them. But I don see any problem to start the list of famous people from Masovia on Masovia page.

Because of the influx of Masovians into the lake region of East Prussia the area received the descriptive name Masurische Seen Platte or short Masuren Masuria, while the people of East Prussia are Ostpreussen. The Eastprussians including the immigrants from Masovia, (who came because of their beliefs) are Protestants, thus can be differentiated from the Catholic Polish Mazury.

User:Europa's comment removed from the article:

"Happy new years you guys and stay cool. You all belong to the european community now. The time for nationalistic and fascistic ideas is over now. The aim of wikipedia is to produce neutral information and is no platform for nationalistic propaganda. So you should not just delete information without comment. Maybe the better way is to discuss first before deleting. Obviously this site is quite controversy and the meaning of "mazur" is different for polish and for former mazurian inhabitants. Maybe this site could contain both sides of view and be a place for communication and peace, not for hatred and isolation."

Masurians/Masovians[edit]

The article currently makes little difference between "Masovians" (from Masovia") and "Masurians" (from Masuria). This is despite the fact that Masurians were culturally and politically affected by being governed by German Prussia, while the Masovians were governed by Polish Masovia. The current title, "Mazurs", also seems odd, as "Masurs"/"Masurians" is the more common spelling in English than "Mazurs" (or "Mazurians"). Barring clarification, it makes sense to me to divide this into separate articles for Masurians and Masovians. Olessi 19:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Emigration of some Masurians from Poland after 1945[edit]

What is the source of information that many Masurians emigrated to West Germany? According to my sources, many Masurians indeed emigrated from Poland, but not to West Germany but to the United States of America. Here you can read my (Domen121) post about Masurians - sources are provided, there is also a map from the excellent book about the state of the Teutonic Order in Prussia - I hope that you will find this post interesting and maybe it can help in improving this article:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=8921&p=1335510

But of course if you will use information from my post in this article, please also provide references to this link - with my post - given above.

Best regards! Cheers! Peter558 (talk) 15:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mazurs vs. Masurs[edit]

There are several WP articles using the term masurian, like Masuria, Masurian Lake District, Battle of the Masurian Lakes and off course Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship (just to name some) and a Google search also shows much more result for the "S" - variant. So I would suggest to use a consistent spelling, any objections? HerkusMonte (talk) 17:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Masurians" is probably the right English language expression, so I suggest to move this page accordingly. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mazurs → Masurians — (see talk page) 199.125.109.99 (talk) 13:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

My edits[edit]

I' ve enhanced the article a little bit. First of all I provided a source for the centuries of emigration. I've actually read that even before the 14th century Masovians settled in Masuria. The Old Prussians used to "kidnap" Masovians and settle them in their lands (simmilar to what Lithuanians did in Podlasie). Those Old Prussian raids were one of the reasons that Conrad of Masovia invited the Teutonic Knights and granted them with Chełmno Land in the first place. So the ancestery of the Polish existance in Masuria is even longer than I wrote but unfortunately I cant find this book anywhere right now.

I provided also the source for the reason of emigration and I gave an info about the different views on Masurians - officials/scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.238.122.133 (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Include Angela Merkel in list?[edit]

She is one-quarter Masurian. Historian932 (talk) 03:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So am I. Will you kindly include me as well. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 09:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi Theme[edit]

It's too much attention to relations between Mazurs and Nazis in this article, I think. My grandfather fight against nazis. But in this articles we see that "Mazur = Nazi"... In any area where German Nazi was coming, they found local scumbags, and gave them power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.179.15.64 (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The role of Nazis in pre-war Masuria is barely mentioned. A single sentence about the high results in the elections of 1932/33 and the usage of the Masurian language in the campaigns is hardly "too much attention". HerkusMonte (talk) 07:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi regime[edit]

I am not happy about the passage During World War Two the Nazis persecuted and killed Polish speakers in Masuria. They certainly did, no doubt, as there still was a high percentage of Polish speakers and Nazis persecuted and killed many people. However, the question is whether they systematically persecuted and killed persons for speaking Polish. And if they did, this will need to be sourced more clearly. Just referencing a collection of essays is not sufficient to my mind. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 07:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the accessible part of the source doesn't mention the fate of Polish-speakers in Masuria. HerkusMonte (talk) 16:03, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately this passage is incorrect. The persecution and murder of Polish speakers in Masuria started before Nazis were elected to power. I will add on this.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Masurians vs. Masuria[edit]

This article should deal with the ethnic group of the Masurians, not Masuria or the History of Masuria. We should try to keep the proper topic and avoid a content fork. HerkusMonte (talk) 06:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Who write this "eediotic" article, Mazur = Mazowszanin, and speling it with "s" is german word, not their own name. About 28% of Poles are Mazurs, you "nazee" "ddorgs" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.172.255.225 (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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"Protestants coming from the Duchy of Masovia, which was independent until 1526"?[edit]

Can we try and get a reference for this please. Does independent just mean not part of the Crown Lands rather than independent of the Crown here? Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 06:53, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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