Talk:Symphony No. 10 (Mahler)

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Cooke versions

There is a bit of misinterpretation about the various performing versions prepared by Deryck Cooke, which I tried to fix.

Here are the facts:

• Cooke "0" - (1960, unpublished): BBC performance, completed 1st, 3rd and 5th movements plus fragments from 2nd and 4th movements
• Cooke I - first complete performing version (1960-1964; unpublished)
  Premiered in 1964 by Berthold Goldschmidt; basis for the recordings by Ormandy (1965/66) and Martinon (1966)
• Cooke II - second performing version (1966-1972; appeared in print in 1976)
  premiered in 1972 by Berthold Goldschmidt; basis for all recordings from 1972 to 1992
• Cooke III - third performing version (1972-1975; printed posthumously in 1989)
  various reading errors adjusted and enhanced by considerations concerning performance

From the booklet of Eliahu Inbal's recording (1992): "The revised version of the full score published in 1976 (the first edition of Cooke's second performing version) was published in parallel with a decipherment of the short score in places where Mahler had not left an orchestral part. [...] The second edition (Cooke's third version) of the score was published in 1989 after Cooke's death, but the performance on the present recording is based on the first edition (Cooke's second version)."

cf. the complete discography of the 10th on: http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/symph10.html -- Wolfgang (unregistered user; posted 2005-05-15)

I copied the summary and the link to the article page. Don't have an exact cite for the summary, but it seems to gibe w/, and sum up well, what's already there. Why do people hide useful content and needed cites on talk pages? —Turangalila (talk) 08:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Solo viola

I don't have the score to hand, but I'm 99% sure that the first movement opens with the viola section playing unaccompanied ('soli'), not a solo viola. Can someone please check this? PhilUK (talk) 22:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes: it's the viola section, playing alone. Pfistermeister (talk) 00:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

To which orchestration(s) does this apply? I don't have the scores at hand, but I remember Cooke's instrumentation somewhat more "voluminous" than e.g. Ratz's realisation of the Adagio. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 11:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's the viola section *in Mahler's manuscript full score* of that movement. Pfistermeister (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Who conducted the 1972 premiere of Cooke's 2nd version?

An IP recently changed the conductor of the 1972 premiere of Cooke's 2nd performing version from Berthold Goldschmidt to Wyn Morris. I think this was in error, because while Morris was the first to record this version, he did not conduct the premiere concert AFAIK. I once had put in Goldschmidt as the conductor of the 2nd version as well, but I just checked this and have to admit, that my basis was a program note from a concert with the Radio-Sinfonie-Orchester Frankfurt from 2001 with no exact date given, so this might be in error. [1] mentions Wyn Morris first, but it is still unclear, whether this was really the premiere. de:Deryck Cooke claimed that the premiere was conducted by Jean Martinon at the Holland Festival, but with no sources cited ([2] knows a live recording from a performance dated 13 June 1975, so this might be an error as well). According to [3] there might as well be an early recording with Vilem Sokol conducting the Seattle Youth Symphony Orchestra. All in all very unclear, so we better leave it out for the moment? --FordPrefect42 (talk) 12:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, with [4] and [5] it seems to be clear, that it was indeed Wyn Morris. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 15:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Performances section

There was a 1975 or 1976 performance of the Cooke II Tenth by the Seattle Youth Symphony Orchestra, Vilem Sokol conducting. I may yet be able to find that recording, or someone from SYSO may be able to dig it up and provide the recording details. Fabulous recording, but then I'm biased because I was in that performance... SamHahn (talk) 06:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Edited Recordings

I edited the recordings section with some new releases, but somehow moved the text to a new section. Rather than making matters worse, I will leave it in hopes someone more proficient than I can fix it. Sorry!

1/20/11 Thanks whoever fixed my screw up! Donaldopato (talk) 20:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

instrumentation

I suppose, the instrumenation quoted in the article referres to the whole symphony(?) Because the first movement (Adagio) ist often played as a single movement, I'd like to know the instrumention of that movement, because from hearing, I think it's not that big(?) (sorry for mistakes, Im not native speaker) --93.215.86.202 (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Dating error

Under the section "Musical Form", the reported inspiration for the muted bass drum is said to be a funeral cortege for "a deceased fire chief" that passed down the street where Gustav and Alma were staying high up in a hotel. The date is given as "the winter of 1907". There are two problems with this date.

Firstly, Mahler only arrived in New York on December 21st, 1907, aboard the S.S. Kaiserin Auguste Victoria ([6]https://mahlerfoundation.org/category/mahler/locations/atlantic/). That leaves a very narrow window for this event to have taken place.

Secondly, having searched the list of deaths in the line of duty on the website of the Uniformed Firefighters Association of Greater New York ([7]https://ufanyc.org/line-of-duty-deaths/), I have found no mention of a fire chief dying on the job in 1907. However, one name does turn up on February 14th, 1908: Deputy Chief Charles A. Kruger. Kruger's name is also referenced on Wikipedia's article about the Manhattan Firemen's Memorial Firemen's Memorial (Manhattan), namely that his death by drowning spurred the creation of said memorial. Strangely, the date given there is 1907, but the Firefighters Association clearly states that Kruger's passing took place in 1908. Furthermore, Henri Louis de la Grange gives an extensive reference to the event in "Mahler in New York" in the "January-February 1908" chapter, and provides a date of February 16th, 1908 for Kruger's funeral procession. Finally, both Kruger's passing and his funeral procession appeared on the front page of the New York Times on February 15th and 17th respectively.

I am therefore editing the date in this article to the correct year. Seadog Driftwood (talk) 03:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

tubas?

'Instrumentation' says there's only one tuba, but the text refers to 'tubas'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.113.18 (talk) 03:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)