Talk:Hamish Henderson

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Untitled[edit]

"He has been called the most important Scots poet since Burns" By whom? I've been known to call John Grisham the worst writer since they invented pens but I wouldn't add it to his article!Dr Zen 12:42, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't remove such a comment, NPOV be damned ;)

We can discuss the relevance and importance of poets to their cultures for hours, but in terms of a direct contribution to Scots (as opposed to English) literature, Henderson is without doubt one of the most influential maakers since the days of Drummond et al. I can't deny that this is a topic close to my heart, so I've tried to stay away from the article having given birth to it. But if anyone else wants to name their candidates, go for it. Calum 18:58, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into a discussion of the merits of different poets. All I suggest is that "He has been called..." are weasel words, and you might substantiate it. I would be less worried by "He is the most important..." Dr Zen 23:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dick Gaughan described him as the most important collector of Scots folksongs of the twentieth century. http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/chain/hamish-henderson.html Ogg 07:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, can we NPOV "the astonishing Jeannie Robertson, whose singing and artistry utterly destroys any criticism of folk music as a "lesser art""? Er Franciscrot 22:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

&& howsabout a link to those archived recordings? 77.99.159.7 22:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Picture[edit]

I think we could still do with a photo of him, as opposed to sculptures of him :) That said, a pic of the bust in Sandy Bells would be good too. I'll see if I can dig up a pic. Calum (talk) 12:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I now have a copy of Timothy Neat's biography, which covers up to the fifties. There are a number of potentially suitable images - having read through the guidelines, I *think* a low-res scan of one of these should count as fair use and be acceptable. Anyone have any comments/experience with such a situation? Calum (talk) 09:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Religious views[edit]

I understand he was brought up as an Episcopalian but has been categorised here as Humanist. Preferably there should be something in the text to support this category.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 06:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just atheist, I believe. I don't think the Episcopalianism survived his teenage years, if that. Calum (talk) 09:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, you should read the external Link to the Scotsman's obituary. That one says that he went to Nazi-Germany in the 1930s as a courier for a Quaker- organization. Doesn't sound very atheist, does it? --- But to me it sounds more interesting to mention his sexual beliefs. I still remember Iain Mackintosh calling him gay, and according to the Scotsman, he was openly bisexual (Doesn't sound very much like a Quaker, does it?) --Ginness (talk) 22:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Poor article[edit]

The article is rife with unsubstantiated assertions. It requires a thorough reworking to provide proper encyclopaedic treatment. I happen to like and admire the man and his works (and philosophy) but don't like the way the article comes across as starry-eyed hagiography instead of objective historiography.

There are a few errors too. For example, the song he wrote to the tune of Farewell to the Creeks isn't called Banks of Sicily (though that's part of the refrain); it's called The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily.Brockle (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2012 (UTC) Done[reply]

Also, this: >>>However, the event marked the first time that Scotland's traditional folk music was performed on a public stage.<<< ...is utter bollox, if you'll pardon the expression. Brockle (talk) 21:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia works like this:- if you think it's wrong, you're more than welcome to fix it. This article desperately needs references, and finding an public domain photograph of a camera-shy man is a nightmare. The quote was "placed traditionally performed Scottish folk music on the public stage for the first time", intended to imply that the concert-going public had previously been fed on the sterilised output of Kennedy-Fraser and her ilk. If you can think of a better way of phrasing that, please do so. Like you, I found the article a bit annoying on my first read. It does need a re-write, but I currently don't have the time, so I chucked in a couple of references and made a few corrections. If everyone who knew Hamish did the same, the article would be something like acceptable in no time at all. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 11:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed merge[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given the uncontested objection with no support and stale discussion. Klbrain (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I propose merging Sandy Bell's into Hamish Henderson largely on the basis that the former likely does not meet the notability criteria for a standalone article. Here's my analysis of why:

Sandy Bell's is not notable under WP:GNG. Source 2 is an appropriate reliable source covering the pub in detail, so it contributes to establishing notability. However, no other source does: source 1 only mentions the pub in passing, 3 appears at least partially self-published and hardly reliable, 4 is a personal blog and thus unreliable, 5 is WP:SPS by the business and 6 doesn't even mention the article subject. User:Phil Bridger brought up Google Books results. Edinburgh South Side Through Time mentions the pub, but it's basically just a list entry (hardly SIGCOV). The same applies to Edinburgh Pubs. Hamish Henderson describes it in a little more depth, but within the context of a detailed biographical work, I think it would still be a stretch to call this significant coverage. If anything, this work supports a case for merging this content into Hamish Henderson, not for establishing standalone notability.

Pinging MisterLeeEsquire, the original creator of Sandy Bell's. Actualcpscm (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly recommend against merging the two pages - the revival was a multifaceted movement driven by and including many people, but it's often talked about like Henderson was front and centre of everything; merging the two pages will only entrench this presumption further.

In terms of secondary sources which demonstrate the notability of Sandy Bell's in its own right, these two might be a good start:

1) Scotland’s Music with Phil Cunningham, Pride and Passion, BBC4 (TV programme with a significant segment about the pub)

2) Munro, Ailie. 1996. The Democratic Muse: Folk Music revival in Scotland (Monograph with several paragraphs about the pub)

I only stopped by here for a quick minute and don't have time to edit the page myself just now, but would emphasise that just because the page is small at the moment doesn't mean it represents something insignificant - it just needs us collectively to add more from sources like those I mention which demonstrate its significance. RuthSalter (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.