Talk:Flint, Flintshire

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County Town[edit]

It's not been the county town since the old Flintshire was abolished in 1974. Has no-one actually been there in the last 30 years?--JBellis 21:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's the county town of the traditional county of Flintshire. The abolition of an administrative county that only existed between 1888-1974 doesn't change that fact. Owain 09:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IP address 81.155.78.218 has made a series of rather dubious additions but I am not in a position to declare them incorrect. I'm not sure what to do about it other than delete them.

Chris97 20:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hilarious[edit]

Lots of hilarious facts on the page... not that useful and correct, but entertaining nevertheless

Moved the following from the main article...

Flint Castle appeared on an ITV Granada Regional Weather Forecast around June/July 2001. Fred Talbot, aka Fred The Weatherman, started the broadcast with some information about the castle which had nothing to do with the weather. He moved on to the forecast for the North West region and for the most part was accurate in his predictions.
and...
Perhaps one of the town's most iconic images apart from the Castle is the high-rise flats situated near the town centre. The first two blocks were built in the 1960's and named Bolingbroke Heights and Richard Heights. Both flats have had terrible problems with the lifts breaking down over the past few years. The third block of flats, Castle Heights, was built a short while after and doesn't have as much trouble with faulty lifts. in 2007/2008 Bolingbroke Heights and Richard Height have undergone a new facelift to their lifts, they are now cleaner and quicker.
62.31.122.85 (talk) 18:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I lived in Fflint for 23 years and moved to London in 1988, would I ever go back? NO, the only thing to do there is get drunk every weekend, which of course I did with my friends, why did I leave? to get away from small minded people, gossip and teenage pregnancies. Since returning to visit Fflint I notice how very clean it appears, and I see veiws that I did not notice before, walking home from Fflint high school to Park avenue past the Gwynned the scenery is magnificent, on a good clear day you can see the Wirrel, the castle appears smaller than I remember, my sons only coment was "is that it"and where are the dragons, the story I told him was same as the one my Dad told me, that all the dragons are down the well at the centre of the castle, its grated over so that the dragons never get out, this story was later put into his true facts about wales in an essay at his primary school in London, much to the delight of all the teachers and myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.248.152 (talk) 17:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Culture and demographics section and Welsh identity[edit]

Thw article states:

18% of the local population identify themselves as Welsh, but the great majority (82%) do not (source: 2001 Census)

There was no option for selection 'Welsh' as an identity in the 2001 Census, so I'd argue that its incorrect to claim that 82% of the population do not consider themselves Welsh based on this.--Rhyswynne (talk) 09:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right 18% is actually quite a high figure as it necessitated ignoring the boxes provided and filling in a section meant for other nationalities. The 2011 census provided a Welsh tick box so will give a more accurate measure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.132.202 (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence of extensive historic Irish immigration into the area? It seems just to be a guess based upon the known history of Liverpool. I believe it may be worth mentioning that a vast amount of emigration from the area of Flintshire into Liverpool would have influenced the Liverpool accent rather than vice versa [Demography of Liverpool] 120,000 immigrants from North Wales into Liverpool between 1813 and 1911, where the population of Liverpool swelled from under 100,000 to 770,000. By 1911 many 3rd or 4th generation early Welsh migrant would have been present alongside modern ones meaning a significant proportion of the Liverpudlian population at the time would have been ethnically Welsh, from Flintshire. The Welsh language was common in Liverpool within living memory, and it was known as the capital of North Wales.Gar P Young (talk) 14:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Transport[edit]

This section is incorrect - referring to the ward map for Flintshire, it's clear that Hawarden, Hawarden Bridge and Shotton stations lie well outside of the area covered by Flint Town Council (which comprises the wards of Flint Castle, Flint Coleshill, Flint Trelawney and Flint Oakenholt). Map: http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/wps/wcm/connect/a1c0b9004f75e8b296599f70467982eb/FCC+Community+Wards.pdf?MOD=AJPERES I will amend this section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.82.0.8 (talk) 17:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 July 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Flint, Flintshire → Flint, Wales – When a town has the name same as a county, it's incorrect to say "X, Xshire". Hence why Lincoln, England isn't titled "Lincoln, Lincolnshire". Zacwill16 (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Comment. It's not incorrect it just contravenes a ridiculous policy. Zarcadia (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This has always been the convention in Britain, and I don't see why it's ridiculous. Saying, for example, "Gloucester, Gloucestershire" is just awkward and tautological. Zacwill16 (talk) 15:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No it's not, looking at Google Ngrams [1] "Gloucester, Gloucestershire" is more common than "Gloucester, England" and has been for the last 50 years. Zarcadia (talk) 18:11, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – There is no reason why the present title should not be retained. It is both the most correct, and the most common way of referring to the place. Country-based disambiguation is a last resort, and appears prejudicial in this case. RGloucester — ☎ 14:38, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Flint name origin?[edit]

Does anyone know where the name comes from? Is there evidence of flint mining, flint outcrops, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miningtown (talk • contribs) 02:14, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've now added information regarding the etymology to the "history" section. Zacwill16 (talk) 10:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I too was hoping that question would be elucidated, but I'm afraid the single sentence currently in the article is no help in that regard:
The name refers to the stony platform on which the castle was built, and was first recorded in 1277 in the French form le Chaylou (cf modern French caillou, "gravel").
First, how do we get from Chaylou to flint? Second, is the "stony platform" in fact made/composed of flint? Lastly, were there abundant deposits of flint in the area in early times? Please ping me when you reply. Thanks! Anomalous+0 (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Very good questions, Anomalous+0. A Flintshire County Council document says that [The] rocky outcrop [on which the castle stands] is the origin of the town’s name, which first appears as le Flynt or le Flynd, probably from the English word ‘flint’, simply meaning hard stone or rock. I agree that the fact the place may once have been referred to in Norman French as "le Chaylou" tells us nothing directly about the English-language name Flint. I will seek out some more sources before rewriting the section dealing with the name. -- Picapica (talk) 06:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, the etymological route of the name Flint is known and clear, it originates from the original Latin name of the castle during it's construction used by the superintendent in extant recorded letters as being Castrum Apud Fluentum, (castle upon the river) there is clear evolution as the name in successive letters later became shortened to 'Apud le Flynd'. In the roll of the accounts for the building of the castle it's referred to as Flynd. Le Caillou predates the castle and the town and has no sensible route to Flint. I've not done references on here before if I can work it out I'll change it up. Gar P Young (talk) 23:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

references before editing please -----Snowded TALK 20:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All references required to disprove the offending paragraph given in the original (reverted) edit, buddy. As per the below...The name Flint originates with the construction of the castle and it's associated settlement as part of the Conquest of Wales by Edward I of England, there are 3 major competing theories on it's etymological roots, however what is known is that it first appears within records written within a month of the start of construction dated 23rd August 1277 naming the project In castris apud le Flynt prope Basingwerk, records from a month earlier upon commencement name the project simply In castris prope Basinwerk translatable from Norman Latin as the castle upon (Le Flynt)near Basingwerk./ The castle near Basinwerk respectively. What is known is that there was no settlement named Flint, or anything relatable to that name prior to the Castle construction. There were 2 historic local settlements in the area of modern day Flint known consistently as variants of the names Coleshill and Croes Atti.[1]

Henry Taylor (1845-1927) a local historian writing in the Historical Notices Of The Borough and County Town Of Flint[2], quoted and endorsed his contemporary John Hanmer, 1st Baron Hanmer's theory that Castris apud le flynt derived from the name castrum apud fluentum translatable as Castle upon the River. In favour of this it is a Latin root word consistent with the rest of the (long)name. An alternative theory is that it is simply a reference to the prominent rocky outcrop upon which the castle is built, in it's favour there are contemporary records in 1277 possibly referring to the project as 'la chaylou' which is translatable as meaning 'pebble'.[3] However, this is only mentioned once in December 1277, is shortly predated by mentions of Castris apud le flynt and written within the accounts for the ongoing works at Rhuddlan Castle apparently in association with that project.[4] This theory relies on the tentative linguistic link between a large rocky outcrop of solid Limestone bedrock on which Flint Castle is built, an Old French word for Pebble and the English word for a type of rock not found locally[5]. The third theory is that it derives from the Welsh Llyn Dinas meaning Lake Fortress evolving through Fllynd to Flint however this has no apparent historical substance, is never sourced or evidenced and is potentially an example of historical negationism and romantic nationalism in opposition to the modern town's Norman origins, but is repeated often in online sources.[6]

As per my reply to you on the other article thread if you would like to work with me to frame this original edit information in a way that you deem appropriate then I'm happy to do so. As it is I trust the referenced information in this raw form is at least enough to justify the removal of inaccurately presented information from this online encyclopedia page? As discussed and raised by multiple other members historically. Thanks. Gar P Young (talk) 00:43, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You needto read up on original research in Wikipedia - you are arguing a case here not referecing third part sources. If the two references you quote state that the name is wrong, or that there is a controversy, then we can note that - if you have direct quotes you can place here that would help. To be clear here, even if you have evidence which I or another editor accepted, which supported you it would not count until it was published in reliable source and constructing a position from primary sources is not allowed -----Snowded TALK 06:41, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"At this latter period, however, Coleshill itself gave way to the name Flint. King Edward, realizing the importance of the river, built his stronghold to protect the ford which then existed and still exists at low tides, although somewhat dangerous,across the Dee at the point where the castle is placed, and which was called Castrum apud Fluentum ; this last-named word in the course of time being corrupted into Flynt. Extant records of Edward's reign relating to Flint are dated " Apud le Flynt," and there is no doubt that the article le gives the clue to the name, and settles it beyond dispute. This view of the etymology of the name was supported by the late Lord Hanmer, who, as Sir John Hanmer, Bart., represented the Flint Boroughs for twenty-six years in Parliament, and whose opinion as an antiquary and as a scholar is to be respected, in addition to his great local knowledge of all matters relating to the borough. Other derivations are given : one is that Silex or petro-silex is a predominant feature of the geology of the surrounding country ; another, that the name was ancient Welsh — Fflyn, a shred, a severed part — a name the independent Britons would naturally give the country after it had submitted to the Roman yoke, which it is evident it did long prior to the other subdued parts of Wales ; and that the ancient name of the country was given to the shire, and from the shire to the principal town." Henry Taylor- Historic Notices Of the County borough and town of Flint: 1828; published by Elliot Stock, London

"1277: dec 3; Shrewsbury: To all whom,etc notification that the king has appointed Nicholas Bonnel... Surveyor of his works at La Chaylou and at Rothelan, as he has enjoyed upon him by word of mouth." p160: Calender of Various Chancery Rolls: Supplementary Close rolls, Scutage rolls. Preserved in the Public Office. 1912; published by HMSO London
(This is the only ever mention of La Chaylou in any historical source) and is confirmed by the compiler as being part of the works at Rhuddlan castle...
"Chaylou, Caylou, le [The district round Rhuddlan, co. Flint] surveyor at. See Bonel, Nicholas." P493
Although many parts of the chancery rolls pertaining to the Accounts for the building of the castle have yet to be digitised there are multiple sources which state that records of Flint first appear as 'castris apud le flynt prope basingwerk' in August 1277, predating that solitary mention of le Chaylou by 4 months, so Flint cannot be argued to originate from le Chaylou as everyone has already highlighted on here it's a nonsense.
"On or about 21 July the whole array moved forward to field headquarters on the Dee estuary at a site which which the records name variously as 'the camp near Basingwerk' and the camp apud le Flynt prope Basingwerk."The Welsh Castles Of Edward I; Arnold Taylor; The hambleton press 1986

"The actual facts seem to be these. When Edward began to erect the castle on 25 July 1277, he fixed his quarters 'near basingwerk' ; there are extant records, dated from 22 to 29 July 'in castris prope basingwerk' that this castra was Flint is proved by a document dated 23 August 'in castris apud le Flynt prope Basingwerk' These facts show that when the castle began to be built on 25 July there was no distinct name for the site... Le Flynt is there full blown, and that within a month of the day when the building of the castle first rescued the spot from inglorious anonymity" English historical review; jg edwards oxford university press 1914.
None of this goes any way to proving the etymological root of the name Flynt which as per the last quote, just appears a month after the castle work began, however i had no intention of proposing any synthesis, there is theory a (fluentum = river = flint) and theory b ( Flint = rocky outcrop) which i am happy to have presented as seperate theories or neither at all (as the truth is nobody knows). What the above does do is prove that la chaylou came later than the name flint intself, and of discredited links to the town at all so should not be included on this page at all let alone presented as fact.::

Gar P Young (talk) 21:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well that is all interesting and shows multiple possible origins - the shard one in particular is iteresting. But Wikipedia reflects third party sources, ideally addressing the specific subject; not what we can dedice directly from primary sources (this is often difficult to grasp for new editors). At the moment the source of the is a third party one and authoritative. So to change that we have to wait for an requivalent publictyion - not our own conclusions formed from interpretations of primary sources. Our current source is from 2002 while the nearest thing to an authoritiave third party statement, directly applied to the subject, in the above is from the 19th Century. -----Snowded TALK 08:40, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not attempting to include any of this, though i do believe they are each secondary or tertiary sources (my reference on the Chancellory Rolls was the commentary of the compiler as published in 1914.) Note the subject matter all the above is dealing with is not the general subject of the origin of the name of Flint which as I say there is insufficient evidence for presenting anything as fact, it's the veracity of the incumbent text (as criticised by other members above)- "The name refers to the stony platform on which the castle was built, and was first recorded in 1277 in the French form le Chaylou (cf modern French caillou, "gravel")"- which each source deals with directly. 'Flint' predates 'le chaylou', and ' le chaylou' was a place near rhuddlan. The conversation about how/ if to include anything on the origin of the name is to be had after we get rid of this disproved fact about 'le chaylou'.

Gar P Young (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://archive.org/stream/historicnoticesw00tayl/historicnoticesw00tayl_djvu.txt
  2. ^ https://archive.org/stream/historicnoticesw00tayl/historicnoticesw00tayl_djvu.txt
  3. ^ Hanks, Patrick; Hodges, Flavia; Mills, David; Room, Adrian (2002). The Oxford Names Companion. Oxford: the University Press. p. 1036. ISBN 0198605617.
  4. ^ J.E Lloyd. Flintshire Historical Society Publications(1913). https://journals.library.wales/view/1256711/1257267/0#?xywh=-2953%2C-207%2C8152%2C4136}}
  5. ^ www.bgs.ac.uk Geological Map Of The UK
  6. ^ http://www.fflint.co.uk/castle.html

Lifeboat station[edit]

I've removed the statement The lifeboat operates both inshore and inland as I don't see how a lifeboat can possibly operate inland -- but perhaps someone can come up with an explanation. -- Picapica (talk) 06:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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