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Prince of Andorra removed from the introduction[edit]
I totally agree that he was ex officio coprince of andorra. But
Andorra is a micro state of 80 000 person at the South of the Country that requires no actual political decisions from the President (in fact some of them do not even accomplish their customary official visit there)
this is only one of a slew of other ex officio titles that all French Presidents have
this isn't mentioned the intros of the other French presidents (fr or eng) so this introduces an inconsistency.
So my take on it is that, this fact, while totally true, is neither specific to Sarkozy nor important enough to be mentioned in the intro :) GLange2011 (talk) 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I agree, mention of the Andorra connection belongs in the article on the French presidency, more than it does on those of each individual office holder, and even there it doesn't IMO belong in the lead. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with GLange2011. --Cheep (talk) 12:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, the title does appear in the leads for François Hollande and Emmanuel Macron. I tend to disagree, anyway, because even if it is in name only, the French president is one of the co-heads of state of Andorra. Despite the fact that it only has a population 80,000 people, it is a sovereign nation. We identify Macron as the present co-head of state in the infobox at Andorra. ‡ Єl Cid of Valenciatalk 15:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia, it does appear in the lead of some other French Presidents. And you are totally correct that Andorra is a sovereign nation. And it weights on the balance.
However:
- in the info box, the link "other offices held" does lead to "other mandates", where Andorra does appear. I totally agree that it could be a problem if Andorra were linked to Sarkozy without Sarkozy being linked to Andorra. But IMO it's not the case [edit 16:32]
- as DoubleGrazing said it much more eloquently than me, as it is ex officio, "it rather belongs in the article on the French presidency" GLange2011 (talk) 16:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by my original arguments, as I think this is different from typical 'symbolic' posts as he is considered one of the heads of state of Andorra. However, since this discussion is not getting much attention, feel free to remove the title for now, not withstanding future discussions. Thanks for the congenial discussion. Cheers ‡ Єl Cid of Valenciatalk 14:03, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing as it does appear in the leads of other articles of French presidents, and because it is an official role as the head of state of a sovereign nation, I believe it is significant enough to go in the lead. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 17:38, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are 2 arguments there, both totally valid.
1 consistency. It is totally true that it appears in several President's pages in the English language. It is however mentioned in none of the French language pages. So... well, I don't know...
2 content of the lead/ 1st line of the lead. Is being the head of a state automatically important enough to be mentioned explicitly in the lead? Even if it is part of being a French president? Even if it is a microstate of 80000 p. and it occupies 0 to 3 hours of their total 5 years mandate? I would say no, but that's my own appreciation.
However if we take the page of the Queen of England, for whom the problem would be much worse, the 1st line of the lead only reads "Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary; born 21 April 1926)[a] is Queen of the United Kingdom and 15 other Commonwealth realms.[b]". The rest is either in the other paragraphs of the lead, in the text, and on a separate page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_titles_and_honours_of_Elizabeth_II)
Maybe, as a middle ground, we could move it further down the lead? After all the style guide says "However, try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead section." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#First_sentence"
(BTW I'm glad we're having this discussion, this is interesting and I've read a lot about Elizabeth II's titles now :) GLange2011 (talk) 10:48, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sarkozy and his lawyer and judge co-defendants have been convicted[edit]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
