Talk:Visual kei

Facts - I will rewrite it

It's more than obvious, this article is one lost step to reality of visual kei and is talking only about X Japan, what in reality weren't that note as visual kei (because their more normal style). Father of real visual kei who were note about costumes, performance and scene all around, were now-defunct Malice Mizer (their singer, Gackt called prince of visual kei). Today Versailles and Moi dix Mois, is VISUAL KEI (VISUAL STYLE) what should be more note. X Japan, Luna Sea, Dir en Grey and younger bands "had" Visual Kei but with years became more suit for mainstream that just J-rock or Visual Kei in general. (for example, look at the GazettE history) There is different story behind it.. and Japan isn't just rock and pop there are many views to talk about it.

While regarding Japanese pops section; J-POP is Japanese popular music, anything and everthing that exist on musical scene. Other "genre or styles" aren't officially confirmed, but they are (in this case of visual kei and J-rock) style of the musician. But, J-Rock never gain in popularity only because, in Japan is more popular a catchy-one week song than a rock song. People there never totaly looked at rockers as real artists (in comparation from USA who are just posers), but as entertainers. Is different place, world and how things are, J-Rock will be always more than a third thing, - behind Enka and big number of J-POP singers. But either, there are rock bands-boybands who aren't count as J-Rock, but are popular. Either overseas never heared..

Samurai left a great impact of self-peace, while Rock is something different (or just mis-understanding) and I think neither 29% like it. In other hand, a great importance is in what region this band is playing, it's history, label house etc. In political way, their lyrics are (again, from USA non-sense) something* they don't want to be listen. Type of living is more slow but fast, and must work. For some company man, musicians are just entertainers without a school, paper. He is like "nothing", but is "something" (for example Yoshiki, who has respect). It is very complicated thing to talk about.

One of worst written articles on Wikipedia. I will re-write it as soon as possible.

Do NOT change anything because page will be RE-WRITTEN.--GreyWolfy (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Genre Discussion

This dispute of whether visual kei is a music genre or not has been going on for a number of years now, and it seems like people have edited everything to claim it is both: a genre and a fashion movement. But as stated above, in the old genre discussions, it is not a music (sound) genre as there are no musical (sound) characteristics that every visual kei band has. For example: Kaya's (Electronic music), Anti Feminism's (Hardcore) and Kagrra's (Traditional Japanese music) music are nothing alike, yet everyone would agree that they were/are all visual kei bands.

This is not a definite decision, someone please try to provide reliable sources that give these necessary defining musical (sound) characteristics of the visual kei music genre. Sources that claim "visual kei is a music genre" or "a specific band is visual kei, therefore that band's genre is one of visual kei's many", but do not provide the whole genre's defining musical characteristics, are useless. If, in a reasonable amount of time, no one has provided these, then it is clear and settled that visual kei is not a music genre and the article, and every related one, will be edited to display this. Or, if need be, a part in the main article, not the beginning, describing how a number of fans believe it is a music genre contrary to the facts, can be added. Xfansd (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

What you have suggested violates the Wikipedia policy "No original research" WP:OR. We cannot decide if visual rock is a genre or not. Instead, we have to find third party sources, and report on what they state. The issue above was resolved by this statement:

However, other sources state that the term refers primarily to a style of dress or fashion, or sub-culture, and not to a genre of music,[citation needed] and some sources use the term in both ways.[11] [12] [13]

It was eventually removed as no reliable source stating visual is not a genre could be found. Denaar (talk) 22:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know which of my suggestions exactly you are referring to with the WP:OP remark. But you have dodged the genre dispute entirely and are changing the discussion to something else. Before you can write an article with proper research and under a proper format you must decide on what the topic is (is it a genre or a fashion?), this effects how the article will be written and how others can edit to improve it.

"Some sources state that Visual Kei refers to a music genre, or to a sub-genre of J-rock with its own particular sound, related to glam-rock, punk and metal." This sentence, one of the few that refers to actual music, says "its own particular sound" but there is nothing to describe what this unique sound is. How is it different than glam metal and punk? With this vagueness one is forced to assume that visual kei's sound is all these combined all the time and that every band has this sound, which we know isn't true. Again, sources that describe how the sound is unique are needed to prove it is its own genre and not everything combined, but none are supplied. However sources that claim it is not a unique music genre are not needed since there is no proof that it is one, so nothing needs to be disproved. Therefore the article should be changed and focused on to what is clearly proven and agreed upon, "visual kei is a fashion movement among Japanese musicians, characterized by the use of make-up, elaborate hair styles and flamboyant costumes". We know the fashion is different than that of glam, because of "influences from Western phenomena, such as goth and cyberpunk" which glam didn't have, this makes the visual kei fashion unique and worthy of its own article. Please keep the discussion to: whether it is or is not a music genre. Xfansd (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Before you can write an article with proper research and under a proper format you must decide on what the topic is.

This is incorrect. Wikipedia editors do not decide if visual kei is a genre or something else. Instead they find sources and report on what they say. If an editor decides "what it is" and pushes that "point of view," that would be against Wikipedia guidelines WP:NPOV. To then write about a point of view without resources would violate original research WP:OR and Verifiability WP:V. These concepts are so important that they are called the "Pillars" of Wikipedia. Ideas that can't be backed up with references can't be incorporated into Wikipedia. You have an opinion that visual kei is not a genre, but neither my opinion or your opinion matters to the discussion of the content of this article. Denaar (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not simply my opinion that it is not a genre but a fashion, you yourself have proven it in the article with proper sources. However you fail to completely prove it is also a genre by not providing the unique musical characteristics of the genre. It is not a music genre as there are no musical characteristics that every visual kei band has. Is this simple and straightforward enough for you to finally focus on the actual discussion that I created this section of the talk page for, which you suggested I do? Xfansd (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Editors provide verifiable resources, not "proof". We have verifiable resources to confirm visual is a genre. I am unaware of any policies stating that "proof" is required for music genres in the manner you describe. Please provide the links to those policies. Denaar (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Firstly, remember that Wikipedia's focus is on verifiability, not truth. What the majority of reliable sources state should generally be accepted at value, though if there are sufficient sources dissenting then there should be some mention in the article of all points of view, for balance. In the context of this article, I see Visual Kei as a similar concept to Glam Rock, in which the genre is defined by a distinct visual style, spread across a diverse range of musical styles. I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove a common musical element across all glam rock bands, but nevertheless it is considered a genre and appears in the infobox of various artists, such as Iggy Pop. My opinion on this matter is that there's no need to 'prove' a common musical component to Visual Kei bands, and there should be no problem with including Visual Kei in the genre field of their infoboxes. If the sources imply controversy over whether or not the genre actually exists from a musical perspective, include the sourced dissenting views in the article. As it stands, the sourcing for Visual Kei strikes me as very similar to glam rock, which is fairly broadly treated as a genre.—TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Fashion style

1. What was the drastic change in appearance that accompanied the successes of X Japan, Luna Sea, and Glay? Didn't those three bands' appearances change very little if at all between their last indies releases and first few major label releases? I don't remember any of these bands having a moment of drastic change (more of an evolution over time) other than when X Japan members cut their hair, which was well after they were already successful.

2. I see a lot of debate regarding whether visual kei is a real musical genre. Along the same lines: is it a real fashion style? What defines it? For example, caligari looked nothing like Malice Mizer and X Japan in its early days didn't look like either of them. As a fashion style it is even less cohesive than it is as a musical genre. I would say it's a broad musical genre and a scene more than it is a specific fashion style. I think the current first paragraph of this article describes it as well as can be hoped. Ibanez100 (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

"Musical genre" sources vs. "fashion style" sources in lead paragraph

After taking a closer look at the citations for the lead paragraph, I am somewhat confused as to their usage. The three citations for the last sentence do all emphasize visual kei bands' costuming, but they also all explicitly use the word "genre" to describe visual kei. Shouldn't these then also be used to cite the "genre" statement? Two of them also explicitly support the statement that the sound of visual kei is related to glam rock, punk, and metal. Conversely, three of the sources used to support the "glam rock, punk, and metal" statement could also be used to support the statement about the emphasis on costuming and presentation.

In other words: the language in the lead implies that the sources used are in disagreement as to what "visual kei" means, when in fact the sources all seem to be in agreement that visual kei is a musical genre related to glam rock, punk, and metal, in which costuming and makeup play a key role. Have I misunderstood something about why each source was chosen for each statement, or do all these sources say a version of the same thing? I don't see any of these sources saying either "it's A not B" or "it's B not A". Ibanez100 (talk) 21:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

machine translation of Japanese Page

Summary

Calling it "visual kei" is often a catch copy of X JAPAN HIDE was invented called "PSYCHEDELIC VIOLENCE CRIME OF VISUAL SHOCK" s yuan is [1]. Aside from the music level, as the word refers to the band issued a hits by flashy makeup, belonging to the "word-new word epidemic" in 1997 along with the terminology and "complex systems" and "Calm system" [2]. After that, came to be used for male but not limited to the field of music. In "Encyclopedia of Japan slang" In addition, the quoted text of the "curse the darkness" is the work of the Hang Seng valley, which is an example of using the girl for not a man [3]. It should be noted that this language has become a word-class in the "Visual Kei" even outside the territory of France, such as [4].

In the example above glossary-Japanese dictionary is represented as "visual system" either. However for the notation of this page is, "SHOXX" "FOOL'S MATE" "Cure" "Zy music magazine the visual system as of March 2008 [zi:] that using" visual kei "according to the notation of newspapers" [ 5].

Trends and features

Musical features

Basically a rock band which also, pop rock and heavy metal of the underlying hard rock J-pop is mainstream. Tend to prefer the ones carrying the flowing melody of minor adjustment to the overall dark intense melody is strong.

The early band, LUNA SEA and X JAPAN of system ecstasy, ZI: and put the band that sings lyrics in decadent aestheticism often to the foundation, such as Goth and New Romantic KILL, a hard rock and heavy metal, was kept constant and the respective power of punk, including anti-social lyrics are rebellious COLOR with a focus on things like a rock beat D'ERLANGER, the system label Free Will, and Kamaitachi.

The band has exploded in the late 1990s, many who were affected by the black dreams and from LUNA SEA, then, since the beginning of the 21st century music styles, including elements such as mood songs and rock mixture The epidemic is.

Many things were "aggressive" "masochistic" "introspective" As the trend of the lyrics. And the most familiar and tragic love song backlash against outside claims and criticisms facing more political, less is the main, basic dark insidious thing has been interpreted as a royal road. However, the recognition that the visual system with the general public by SHAZNA hit on the cover of popular song in 1997 and was seen as the traditional image of a population far removed from Dark Colours. Has created a lot of followers later in the year 2001, a band and a unique melody and lyrics of a song play on words, such as Showa cali ? gari appeared, but did not lead to big sales. Trend in 2006 was said royal road to both lyrics and music are concealing shadow. In addition, visual-kei bands in the 1990s when the epidemic, there was also called "ban jokes" as tacit consent for some reason, this is also about the person who pointed out the differences with the band as the visual system of the early days not a few. However, the band was also incorporated into the theme of music as the functional beauty of DIR EN GREY. Janne Da Arc, etc. There are expressions that use some sensual music, with lyrics from a female perspective, that is does not sound like vulgar only.

According to Marty Friedman, the visual system in Japan is that they have a width of music very broad in fact that by the achievement of X JAPAN, is widely recognized in general, while the cornerstone the heavy metal is also about the melody. Pleased to announce the beautiful ballads such as "Say Anything" from the music of ultra-high speed ultra-aggressive, such as "Silent Jealousy" is the original X JAPAN, melody, but prefer one person should fit into a certain width We, the fans have accepted it. And that it is evidence of X JAPAN has been established as a brand appearance along with the sound [6].

Features an appearance

Visual-kei band costume play (MALICE MIZER)

Visual-kei band fashion has changed dramatically increase in line with the times.

Until the early 1990s from the early days of the late 1980s, such as in dark makeup and ornate hairstyle that erect them with the colors gold and red flashy, such as long hair is up to about the waist, and flourished in the United States in the late 1980s were many things to extremes, such as those rock and traditional fashion of "hair metal" such as Poison and U~orento. It was vertically total wound a bandana parted in the middle DEAD END, the hair was to stand the total sink next to COLOR, the hair was then vertically total dyed your hair red and blue for the first time was Kamaitachi.

From that contained in the age 1990, YOSHIKI of X JAPAN was wearing a dress feminine at the same time as incorporating the piano in the band, which is a perversion of the mental image of aesthetic and cosmetic medieval women to penetrate begin. Because it was exposed to criticism and social accident that killed a fan due to stampede in the concert COLOR was engaged in a live Violence is masculine in the same period, also did not appear followers of them, the visual system was going to accelerate it to a women.

Later, also appeared from the forces of positive influence from punk or gothic, dark image of what is aesthetic, but more diverse things pop, such as those of Dark Colours On the contrary, their derivatives also other Deattari order to reduce discrimination and was conspicuous for what purpose, such as. However, the values that appeared then by MALICE MIZER, rather than a role as a fashion, that express the view of the world simply with that band was born. In addition to a wide variety of late style is derived in the 1990s that was popular in the general visual system. And, in a band that is attached to the back office is great and will this time, no longer uncommon to come wearing a costume custom made to order.

Become epidemic of the 21st century and beyond visual system has left its diversity is also faded away, just like in the scene of fashionable rather than for self-assertion, and many of them. Although popular in fashion and Psycho le Cemu cali ? gari was exceptionally prominent, followed by bands such as is not out. There is also the rise of the band to be active in the costume and fashionable as pop baroque, a style that became fashionable period, then a band of like make-up fuel a sense of fear of those who see the rise was.

Was often displease an opportunity that you did break and major debut, no less band make-up becomes thin after that, continue to change to something rough costumes, from the fans that "flattery in general" by it was. To have a band, "says order to have listened without prejudice to more people" for this was, it's often easiest to or changed the music you want to do simply, Or was kinda burdensome, in order to concentrate on the music more was often told in the motive was to interfere with.

In line is shifted to punk pop is far from black like a dream, if you also increase the male fans, and collaboration or another unit of the genre, success in the royal road of catchy rock songs like GLAY then, such as form a is supported from the fan base broad, or transformed into a band of people from the category of the visual system, from gaining popularity in certain as DIR EN GREY, goes forward the route a maniac in the deep single-mindedly, band was also going to earn more core fans. ZIGZO had been referred to as the visual system because it was not serious, then the makeup from the beginning. Staging is also a genre very important, do not move the band to play while standing in place in the concert all the members is negligible. Was also in the band with dance music does not have a musical instrument as MALICE MIZER to incorporate skits like whitewashed system. Characteristic of the fan

Band because there are a lot of emphasis is the configuration of the only men in the looks, the fans are young women in their early 20s have the majority from the die 10. In the fan, the person who dressed the unique atmosphere of the band along (such as cosplay punk, Gothic, Lolita, Gothic Lolita, Decora, the band members) are often found.

Visual system at the time the 1980s the word was not born yet, more than a few bands were present Yosuru the male fans. Fashion of those bands, and the current fashion of the visual system, unlike some Western influence from the band was seen. Currently, the typical fashion of the time age 80 is already recognized as obsolete. Fashion of the current visual kei bands, ranging from young mogul, from the 80's at that time was greatly transformed. It is not an acceptable thing for male music fans, as a result, the visual system has lost a large number of male fans.

Bangyaru gear that man, a woman a man of an avid fan of visual kei bands.

The history of the visual system

The dawn of the visual system

Between mid-term from the early 1980s, the basis of the visual system began to establish positive punk by the band of Gothic-AUTO-MOD, Madame Edowaruda, et al. PHAIDIA. In hard rock / heavy metal scene of the indies, and common sense X JAPAN, such as COLOR, of rock band until it is far removed from that band of style and began conspicuously significant activity in the Kanto and Kansai and about the same time. Their activities, as at that time very innovative and established his own independent label, and to expand the promotion of innovative advertising ads such as free distribution of sound gig, to the media, in the indie scene after the conduct that has built the foundations ahead than anyone else, the strategy become mainstream.

Both of these bands, but very deep exchange, representation of fact was contrary to the spirit and emphasis of metal and punk, music and emphasis. At the time was said to Dynamite Tommy "YOSHIKI of the East" merged with "COLOR X of east and west", west of this phenomenon. From now on, referring to their activities, a variety of musicians would like to established his own label. The end of the band and boom, the rise of the visual system

In the early 1990s, on the other hand of the end of the boom band, visual-kei rock band of fans that had emerged, such as black and LUNA SEA has been a dream debut. SHOXX magazine will be launched at the same time.

Also what had been active as a band beat and rock hard rock, heavy metal, at that time popular will subside in the form of these genres is pushed to the rise of the visual system, and the intention of the person according to the epidemic, or In some cases, were seen as been forced to circumstances due to factors such as the record company offices and sales strategy by affiliation, such as requests for commercial, including its music, not forced to migrate in the form. Then [citation needed] and became the band's most commercial element becomes stronger, spirituality as a lock is to be diluted. Or been affected by that area, appearance of male fans was rarely seen in visual-kei bands from this period.

About the band also in the band was hit on the other hand, increases or the popular and well known, and enough high evaluation of music, has been recognized world wide, then is characterized as the visual system, such as depth of makeup has faded ~Tsu many things. There is a rock band regression, such as a metal band to a pure original, to change direction, such as punk, because of a change in direction of rock music, such as to issue a stronger color is common.

Epidemic and decline

Around 1997 the word visual system is used extensively, was established as a genre, due to intense push, such as "Break Out" program TV, said MALICE MIZER, La'cryma Christi, FANATIC ? CRISIS, and SHAZNA, after Led by four bands will be called Devas to visual, leading to a number of major bands debut. MALICE MIZER, and the other emits a conspicuous band makes a clear distinction, SHAZNA debut single was a big hit in it. In addition, fires a hit PENICILLIN already had a debut. Then he made his debut in the same period La'cryma Christi, and FANATIC ? CRISIS, which made its debut and then persists, PIERROT, DIR EN GREY, and Janne Da Arc. One-man band also appeared live at the venue of the Arena class, PIERROT will update the shortest record leading up to the one-man live at Budokan from major debut, DIR EN GREY had set a record from the period a number of indies in particular. However, the epidemic that also lasted a long time, momentum in the late 1990s the genre called "visual kei" in the major scene is said to decline rapidly. Relapse of the boom

From around the year 2000, the visual system from the public and the music industry had been treated as already obsolete. In the indie and underground scene of countless bands had been milling around, however. At that time, the visual system, there will be more geeky compared with bygone days, was supported by an enthusiastic fan of the part. Moreover, the trend shows the appearance and deeper view of the world which is built to be preference.

When I entered in 2002, and Visual-kei indie scene is full of change that the band name and CD title Tera~tsu Hiragana Katakana, the odd happened. This epidemic has spread rapidly to the emergence of baroque border is called "fashionable system" from its fashion, it is corruption, calling it "Osare system," said the well-established.

By the time new bands and artists in 2003 to win many Yuku Nightmare,-miyavi-Ya, and the GazettE, a young fan appeared.

In 2005, formed the jealkb is Atsushi Tamura of stand-up comedian. Many popular media from the height of the popularity of Tamura, do not deal with the visual system is reported mainly in the activities of the jealkb Tamura, jealkb has contributed greatly to the publicity of the scene as a result of the visual system.

In 2006 and reunited the band with the world by storm in the 1990s, such as SHAZNA, 2007 is the year, 2009 LUNA SEA and SIAM SHADE is limited to one day such a dream black, the band was (stop activity) or dissolution already reinstated in, that provided the many topics.

Artists such as increased visual-kei band to release a major label is more than work, to do live abroad, were signs of return of visual-kei boom. Epidemic of neo-visual system

In June 2006, Oricon, defined as "system neo-visual" refers to band young and driving force of the boom who relapse, following the interview to "SHOXX" magazine, the current status of the system Neo-visual was reported as [7].

Should be called (the visual system emerged from around 2004) these system neo-visual in recent years, the emergence of new artists is booming at the store each specialized magazines, CD shop, live house. Picked up early artists of the system Neo-visual mentioned here, in the latest issue and listen to the editorial department of "SHOXX" monthly magazine are greeted on the cover the Gazette, in the first: the goodness of "looks, some thing with the "mass upsurge is similar to the way in the sense of idol. "You are also noticeable live, even stronger band of entertainment, incorporating the elements of the play, the fans seem to enjoy the atmosphere of such live." As for the sound of the bottom line is, until something catchy from a hard, it has been subdivided as in a word is not constricted, although there is also an important factor surface sound such, more of whether like in the point of visual The fan seems to have the emphasis is.

- Oricon Style

According to the report of the Oricon, sound itself can be discussed from the perspective of neo-visual system suggests it is barren. If you explore the characteristics of the sound still, from the effects of visual-kei band X JAPAN and LUNA SEA, such as who was active in the 1990s is neither seen without.

However, neo-visual system as pointed out why the barrel of Oricon, of neo-visual system that looks good is the first destination is needless to say that again. Band young the GazettE was called the system Neo-visual swept the top of the charts, Nightmare, Alice Nine, such as Sid, (photo artist) costume makeup and fashionable aware of the upsurge of idle more It was popular in. There are commercial strategy was conscious of the fan to thoroughly whether it be like at the point of this shows that visual.

Had been suffering from depression as well as CD music scene and other scenes are also neo-visual system. Record companies around the budget of ¥ 100 million, including production costs and advertising expenses and for general master, to produce a single CD. Must spend a great deal of effort to get the profit to recover the production costs 1,500 yen 1,000 yen sold in a single-sheet CD, and spent. In contrast, young band that is around, we have developed a new powerful sources of revenue to compensate for sluggish sales of tickets, as well as goods such as live CD and Neo-visual system and self-produced. It began selling in the selling price is about 1,000 yen a piece of Polaroid photos taken with camera-Cheki instant. True cost of goods manufactured according to the sheet is less than 100 yen a Cheki, and to build a good business model Yohodo profitable than sales to record companies simply produce a CD. Supply and demand situation the results are matched by stunning, selling goods in the band's neo-visual system of Polaroid photos that sell better than the CD has been produced.

In addition, as Oricon have pointed out, relapse of the boom by the band Neo-visual system is localized in the house and live expert called (child Iba parts) of the visual system specializes in media, specialty record store, box V can not be ruled out that was not preoccupied with such movement, to broaden our horizons to the general audience.

The Decline of Neo-visual system

Boom of neo-visual system from fetal movement after 2002, a relapse from the year 2004, from the band was led by young, went into decline again and the road to the border the Fall of 2009.

Sony Music is among the three companies of Japan's largest record company, Avex, Universal Music, Avex is from Megamasso and D, and D'espairsRay is from Universal Music Sentai NOIZ universe, Neo-visual decline boom system The major one after another in time began to debut.

This is due to the common problems of the record industry for a major record company to debut the artists, for the convenience of production and organization, that it takes time for well over a year or more. By the time since the debut of the band contemplated a major record companies at the height of the boom, a major debut is actually fulfilled boom was already on one's knees.

D is lowered to 37. Second album "7th ROSE" from 11th of the first album "Genetic World" the highest ranking of Oricon chart, Megamasso is a highest ranking of the first album "M of Beauty" is now ranked 76, NOIZ Sentai universe (single "BRAND NEW WORLD" of the highest rank then # 117) to bear, D'espairsRay is the first album "REDEEMER # 158 in the highest rank yet first album is a greatest hits album" GREAT ROCK'N 'ROLL HEROES " "# 39 was the highest ranking. Sentai NOIZ the universe, has been moved to indie label again.

In late October 2009 is the first visual-kei rock festival "V-ROCK FESTIVAL '09" was held at Makuhari Messe. Held rock festivals such large-scale is, for scene visual system at the time, 2009 was exhausted is a good news Notably, the band visual system of many, who appeared as early a system Neo-visual. In addition, securing the degree of expected box office for the purpose of revitalization of the scene, and it is possible also held the following year is expected to greatly [8].

However, there was no V-ROCK FESTIVAL that held for the following year will not be any announcement, which will be held in 2010. In addition, LOUD PARK was held at the same venue at about the same time in 2009, was held as usual in 2010. (Production back stage project) V-ROCK FESTIVAL '09 is, that get them used to be diverted most of the stage setting of (produced by Creative Man Productions) LOUD PARK in 2009, had been saving the cost of production stage . In addition, the sponsor of V-ROCK FESTIVAL '09, cooperation, sponsored by, any of the sponsorship, the visual system in the scene name of publisher has issued a noteworthy music magazine was not published in [9].

Was reported even under such circumstances, Sid [10], the GazettE [11] are performances each at Tokyo Dome in December 2010, and to mobilize an audience of 40,000 people, respectively [10] [ 11]. Reality and illegal downloads of "popular" Overseas

[8], "apparently very popular in foreign countries seems to" recognize that the press had been established through a number of media, that the visual system popular in foreign countries has been made in Japan so far. However, the reality is that, with the image that has been unilaterally from the media coverage that was different though, has been clear from the several sources of information.

Nathan is representative of the site Rivun "HearJapan" music to sell Hogaku towards overseas, for visual kei fans overseas, especially acrimonious letter posted on its website [12]. To quote the abridged below.

Letter to the fans for the visual system

Began to act outside the territory of Japan (Omitted), of Japanese music fan base is rapidly expanding, looks like a band finally go abroad, try to source local ties with the fan. Because this flow was more pronounced in the visual system in particular, I aim to enhance the visual system (per the establishment of the HearJapan). However, sales of any genre other than the visual system, it was five times by a large margin compared to the visual system. This does not impact Tsukuse beyond description. Fan that is attached to each visual kei bands Despite the fact that countless sales of the album of the visual system is not performing like it or why, I asked myself. (Omitted)

After all, the only way to sell the music of the visual system, we found that it is not until just before the release date other than the arm-twisting (and as a result of purchase of reservation). After the release date is, but we would not sell it immediately. Nothing more nor less than a clear reason for this is that, without the permission of the officials who have invested time and money to making music band, or label, music files from being uploaded to the net. Many users on the net, has a pride and joy that to download music for free to fan the visual system of other, more importantly, the right holder (artist, music production, record label it, It is a copyright management organization that has been done without permission, etc.) photographer. This is why after the release date is no longer selling the visual system. (Omitted)

Is not a problem only in download sales HearJapan. Although I did you I see your data export CD of some of the visual kei band, but unfortunately, there is a correlation was seen download sales and similar sad HearJapan. This letter is not to tell you about HearJapan loss is suffered. Sales of non-visual-kei genre, but because it is something more than make up for the slump in sales of the visual system. That you want to convey in this letter, it is a problem that it is the act of illegally distribute the sound source on the net, to be brought as a result of their own fans and not only for artists, hopping around.

I've tried to talk among (not being delivered in HearJapan) and many visual kei bands and labels, I've heard the same story with one voice. From that access from abroad have rushed to the MySpace and official site, they just made an effort to try to sell music to fans overseas inflated expectations, it is a and had suffered a huge loss. (Omitted)

To translate accurately the information of the band, and Just You take the encoding of music files, the page of the site must wear a tag, advertising, a phone call for confirmation to the band and there are no problems with this everything based on the request of the band I also multiplied many times, was subject to losses. Compared to the band has suffered loss, are insignificant such as the loss of me. You, even as the storm drew praise from the world a million people released something with all the force of one's being, was produced by using time and money, and finally saw a really stupid to not get a penny Now that you have and I just, want to continue such a thing again. To me, so I do not think so. (Omitted)

However, the biggest excuse, "I am making are introduced to the many fans of the band further. A lot of fans (make out from the user is illegally on the Internet to distribute music files without permission of the copyright holder) is the claim that there is no problem from "the band has helped me with. This is true also include a piece of certainly. I've seen download (illegally) is any, had been turned to J and J rock fans from rock fans, however. Now that you share files and music from J to J rock fan rock fans, the band will not help one bit. That the new fan is produced because there is no sound. Speaking can be brought in illegally uploaded to the net, that is about to kill all of the profits they would be obtained from the band album was produced by the disastrous struggle (even financially). Fan, and I will pay money to the music will be provided for free does not. To say that over ten thousand fans outside of Japan already, reason to be distributed free of charge there is no music anywhere. I, we are well Zonji of the visual system that the fan base, have been greatly enhanced by these illegal activities. However, I have also noticed the fact that sales have not increased at all of the album of the visual system.

68.183.228.220 (talk) 19:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Translation from Russian wikipedia

I'm going to take a stab at incorporating information from the Russian version of this article into the English version. Is there any particular information I should incorprate?

Zdorovo (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

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The word Movement

The word "Movement" has always stuck me as a words you would use differently in Japanese then English - in English, it can mean "a group of people working together to advance their shared political, social, or artistic ideas" or "a campaign undertaken by a group of people working together.. The thing is - Visual Kei was coined by a critic that was critical of the bands he was describing; the bands adopted it. I changed it to "label used" which is accurate and sounds natural in English, and I hope that's not controversial among editors here. In English, "Movement" tends be used for Art, Politics, Social Groups. In music, a "movement" is a section of music, so that word isn't really used as it has another meaning. Generally we say "Music Scene" instead of "Music Movement". Denaar (talk) 19:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Visual kei or not visual kei

User:Xfansd, were Glay and L'Arc-en-Ciel visual kei or considered as visual kei between 2000-2009? Was it Hyde or someone else individually? It can be read they were "originally visual kei", "have not had any association with the movement since their major label debut" and so on. Their visual appearance and performance wasn't shocking anymore since the 90s. Seems like people are confusing visual kei acts with general Japanese rock scene.

Gackt always emphasized visuals, performance and shock effect, also stating his connection to visual kei or being a VK-singer. He also had toned down appearance in comparison to his MM days, but it is a rare example of a VK act/person that has reached such "pop" mainstream. Hence, it is a bit strange, apart of Gackt's sales and Tokyo Dome etc., what other big & mainstream name, sales or event happened 2000-2009? It almost looks like Gackt carried alone the visual kei's mainstream for almost 10 years. Miki Filigranski (talk) 08:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Without a reliable source, what you're saying is WP:OR. I know it's not easy to find sources for Japanese acts (especially older stuff), but even if I were to agree with your assessment on Gackt being the only one (which I don't), in this specific instance I have to say claiming that a single person was the top act or carried an entire scene for a decade might even fall under WP:EXTRAORDINARY. If you find one reliable source saying something like he was the best-selling VK act of the 2000s, then I personally would be OK with adding that specifically, even though it would be false in my opinion.

As for whether or not Glay, L'Arc-en-Ciel or any other act should be considered visual kei for only a specific time period or if they ever stopped being VK entirely, that's a huge can of worms. In your personal opinion Glay's visuals weren't crazy enough to be VK in 2000–2009, but then they were a headliner of the Visual Japan Summit in 2016. So you're suggesting we can mention Glay in this article in the 1993–2000 and 2009–present sections, but not the 2000–2009 one? You're talking about dissecting every single band's visuals for every single year. Every rock band has an image to some degree, who gets to decide what the minimum requirements for VK are and what's "shocking" or not? (Sophia is one that never made sense to me). Your suggestion of excluding bands for specific time periods is just way too intricate and circumstantial for me to support. I'm perfectly fine with going by an "if they were VK at one point then they can be mentioned in this article" criteria. Xfansd (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Agree, the addition about Gackt was rushed and mostly based on general information without citing secondary RS, but I do recall reading something along the lines in secondary RS in Japanese language, but considering how bothersome would be searching it is fine.

Agree, said it well. My commentary about Glay and L'Arc wasn't only based on my personal opinion but secondary sources - saying they only originally were visual kei. I did not suggest something like that neither have a clear opinion about mentioning them or not in specific decades - please don't put ideas and words I didn't say. What are reliable sources and context claiming and/or showing Glay and L'Arc being self-reported and perceived as visual kei after 2000 and before 2016? L'Arc isn't even part of the '90s Visual Kei Cover Album.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

To be frank, it is really not clear enough what makes somebody visual kei or not, also, personally, seeing almost no "visual kei" in X Japan and Luna Sea post-2000 as well yet are still kinda perceived/reported as such. It is almost like visual kei became just a brand-marketing name without clear meaning and reference to cultural trend (similar to New-age music).--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting it was only your opinion that they weren't VK at that time. I am aware that there are sources stating that both bands have toned-down their appearances and that there is question whether or not they can currently be considered VK. I wasn't denying that. But weren't you suggesting that Glay and L'Arc's success from 2000–2009, which surpasses Gackt's and therefore would mean he was not the "top act", is irrelevant because they weren't VK at that point? And you just now asked for sources confirming they were VK between 2000 and 2016. What I said at the end of my previous reply was that I view the idea of requiring sources to support a band to be VK for their entire career, or for any specific periods of time, to be excessive and not feasible.

"To be frank, it is really not clear enough what makes somebody visual kei or not". That's kind of exactly what I'm saying. There is no definition of VK, neither musically nor visually. Everyone, including journalists, are gonna have different opinions on what qualifies as "elaborate hairstyles and costumes". I am of the opinion that as long as they were considered VK at one point in time, then is doesn't matter if they stopped putting their hair up, and anything they accomplished in their career is relevant to this article. This article mentions how some acts toned-down their appearances over the years. That's good enough, it doesn't need to detail each one. Xfansd (talk) 21:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, that is good enough, but it is a legitimate question whether and when a music act "was" visual kei. It is something factual, also needed considering NPOV because otherwise some acts could be included/excluded although were/weren't visual kei anymore. It possibly gives the readers wrong impression. I won't be discussing further this issue. Thanks for the feedback, all the best.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)