Talk:Mod (subculture)

Beat music

The lead says that beat music (I assume this means Merseybeat and variations), was a music style associated with the mods. I am not a mod expert, so I hadn't known that. Soul, ska and R&B, I was aware of, but not Merseybeat. So I looked in the article for more information, and there is none. The only other mention of "beat music" is in relation to the Beatles: "Although the Beatles dressed "mod" in their early years, their beat music was not popular among mods, who tended to prefer British R&B based bands."

The statement in the article that mods preferred R&B to Merseybeat style music is closer to my casual understanding. I did do a quick search for "beat" and "mod", but nothing significant came up. If the mods were associated with Merseybeat or any other form of "beat" music, it might be helpful to explain this in the lead with appropriate sources, or remove the mention of beat music from the lead.

And it might be helpful to identify what "beat music" is. Is it meant to mean Merseybeat? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:29, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a case of the lead not matching the main body. I added most of the music section and my reading clearly indicates that Beat music was not popular among early mods, in fact rather despised. The easiest way to fix this is probably just to take it out of the lead.--SabreBD (talk) 18:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that Sabrebd. I have removed it. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 23:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Mod in the US

This article surprised me a bit. As a child of the '60's on the US, I wasn't aware of this scooter/amphetamine culture. I believe Mod in the US had quite a different connotation. In my eyes Mod was wide belts on striped pants, bell bottoms, bright colors, paisley print, Nehru jackets, Beatle haircuts, a combination of groovy, hip, psychedelic, Yellow Submarine, The Monkees, Laugh-In, Peter Max, though not exactly hippy style. The majority of people from middle age down accepted this style in some way. I don’t believe there were any negative associations with being mod in the US. It was just the style at the time. This British Mod seems more like a precursor to grunge and punk. I believe there needs to be a separate USA Mod article. Flight Risk (talk) 18:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you 100%!!! However, we should simply incorporate U.S. and world perspectives in this article (which aims to be the definitive universal Wiki statement on mod). This article is written almost exclusively from a London pre-1964 perspective (i.e. "ticket" mods on scooters fighting rockers). And that part is fine, but it is only a part of the story, while the article ignores almost everything that mod became after that, both in England and elsewhere. Here in the states, mod was a fun "groovy" thing that tied in with early hippie (and, yes, punk, but not in the later form--think of all those garage bands playing early punk music--and how they loved the groovy mod styles). This article will desperately need major additions (and a broader emphasis) if it is to be considered a reliable and credible resource (particularly to people outside of England):

• France (late 50s): Jean Seeberg and that scene in Breathless.
• England post-1964 (1995-1968): "Swinging London," mini-skirts, pop art, Antonioni/Blow Up, drugs, etc.)
• USA & world (1964-1968): Folk rock, garage bands, Sunset Strip LA, Factory NY, early hippie, mini-skirts, Twiggy, Laugh In, "Sock it to me", drugs, etc. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC) Garagepunk66 (talk) 20:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Flight Risk, I have made some additions and modifications to reflect mod as it was experienced here in America. I have added a section about mod here and around the world. Hopefully, this section can expand with time. Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Garagepunk66 for the much needed inclusions of US Mod in the article. Flight Risk (talk) 05:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

"Mod" article needs changes in title and thematic orientation as well as expanison--written from limited and biased perspective: does not encompass mod as worldwide phenominon--also: factual errors/misconceptions

This article is the only Wiki article about 60' mod (at least that has "mod" in the title), so therefore it needs to be more objective as well as comprehensive. The article's thematic orientation needs to be broadened and the article needs to be expaneded to include later developments. Because of certain factual errors, this article's defects have lead to misunderstandings that disrupt the factuality of other Wiki articles. It is written from a myopic British-centric pre-1965 perspective and deals too exclusively with mod as a pre-1965 British street subculture and not as a larger world phenominon and broader fashion movement. Although it does mention in the heading that mod grew to be a larger phenominon, it treats that development (there and elsewhere) as pejoritive and sees the wider spread of mod as stricly mass media and commercial hype (and deems very little else about later developments worth mentioning). This point of view is highly biased and is not suitable for an encyclopedia article. This bias (along with the pre-1965 British-centric perspective) must be corrected. It denies those of us who live in countries, other than Engaland, the ability to read about mod as we experienced it and we understand it (1965-1968), so we cannot count on this article as a reliable reference.

First of all, I agree that no discussion of mod should leave out its beginnings as a British street subculture: the motor scooters and rivalries with rockers, etc. All of that should be remain (they could even go into more discussion about the "faces" and "tickets" of the 1961-1964 phase)--this period was immortalized on the Who's Quadrophenia album. But the article just ends there. New sections must be added to discuss how mod developed beyond that.

Factual errors and misconceptions:

• Error 1--That implicit message that mod after 1965 became all hype and commercialism (and essentially died after 1965). Actually, some commericalism was evident far earlier, with influences from French and Italian fashion (that the article mentions). World fashions after 1957 began to change, first in women's fashions which became more modern and sleek (note the difference between the Mamie Eisenhower look and the Jackie Kennedy look). The existentialsit/beat/coffee house phase of British mod ended after the late 50's. Did that mean Mod was in decline? No, it just changed. So, the French and Italian influences started coming in and mod began to evolve. In the early 60's (up through 1964) British mod had two predominant subgroups: 1) "faces" ("smooth mods" or "peacock mods") slightly older (early 20's set) and higher in pecking order--wearing the latest fashions and going to clubs--seen as leaders and movers and shakers. 2) "tickets" (mostly teens): street mods--wearing trenchcoats, riding scooters, and getting into clashes with rockers. But, in the next few years, the mod phenominon progressed way beyond rivalries with rockers. It developed into something much larger.

• Error 2--Statement that "By the summer of 1966, the mod scene was in sharp decline" is misleading. Yes, the "street mod" scene ("tickets" mentioned above) had declined (they transmorphed into the early Skinhead movement in England (see Wiki article). The motor scooters had gone out. Rivalries with rockers had subsided, but mod grew into its "Swinging London" phase (which could be regarded as a pinnacle). More importantly...MOD BECAME A HUGE WORLDWIDE PHENOMINON LIKE NEVER BEFORE IN 1966!!! Here in America we never knew anything about clashes between mods and rockers or street mods riding around in motor scooters and all of that violent aspect. We only knew mod as a fashion thing...but what a cool thing it was!!! Check out the Life Magazine cover sory that was done on mod: [Revolution in Men' s Clothes: Mod Fashions from Britain are Making a Smash in the U.S., Life Magazine, May 13.,1966, pg. 82-90] Our folk rock and garage rock bands were greatly influenced by the mod look of British bands and took to wearing Carnaby Street styles, mop tops, and pointed boots (front cover picture in Life was based on an earlier photo taken in Chicago of garage rock band, The Del Vetts ([[23]]). The girls started to wear mini-skirts. Twiggy became the rage. Mod was certainly not in decline in 1966, but was at an ALL TIME HIGH!!! This article does nothing to reflect the reality of mod as a wordwide phenominon of this period (and what brief mention treats it in a disrespectful way)--and that is a grave omission. We here in America were just getting started with mod in 1965 & 1966. And it is a time we fondly remember. Mod, here (as in England), went beyond the mere commercial: it was a style that signified generational change.

THESE MISCONCEPTIONS AVERSELY AFFECT THE FACTUALITY OF OTHER WIKI ARTICLES: In the section devoted to American 60s garage rock ("Garage and mod') in the Wiki "Punk rock" article, the claim is made that "mod was in decline in 1966" (and it subltly conveys the false imression that garage rock was also in decline that year). THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG, FACTUALLY SPEAKING, and destroys any meaningful discussion of garage rock here in America (circa 1966). By the way mod stayed extremely popular here through 1968. As for mod in England (1966): check out Michelangelo Antoini's classic film Blow Up (1966). I don't see any evidence of decline of mod in England at this time, just mod reaching an all time high. THIS IS THE PERIOD THAT EPITOMIZES SWINGING LONDON OF THE 60s!!! So, maybe the street mods were gone (they became skinheads), but mod reached its all time high.

• Create new sections that trace developments in mod post 1964 (i.e. 1965-1968).

• Change title: Go from "Mod (subculture)" to Mod (fashion and subculture). Get rid of the pre-1965 Britsh-cenrtric biases. Make big changes to article or create whole new more general mod article!!! Garagepunk66 (talk) 09:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC) 05:51 06:37 06:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

If you can provide reliable references to back up what you are saying, then you can add the content yourself. As for the title, I see no reason to change it. The current title accurately describes the topic of the article, which is the mod subculture.Spylab (talk) 15:24, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Spylab, I noticed some terrific additions to "Decline" section and I am happty to notice that you removed wording that appeared to be judgemental of later developments. Well done! Nonetheless, I do think that the section should be re-named "Withdrawl of hard mods and emergence of swinging London" and not say that "the mod scene was in sharp decline," but rather that "the hard mod element began to withdraw from the mod scene..." (i.e becomeing skinheads). The section should then go on to mention that the fashion, pop art, beat music, and club elements of the scene becacme ascendent and that the mod scene entered its "Swinging London" phase--a phase in which it would have the greatest global impact.

In the last parts of the article, we could cretate new sections describing "Swinging London" and "Global phenominon." I could try to add some carefully documeted information in these new sections. Keep in mind that we here in America, came to know mod as a peaceful, "groovy" kind of thing, and this aspect should be reflected as well. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I have added sourced mention of mod outside of England in the heading, so that Americans, as well as people in other countries, can recognize mod as something familiar and be able to see the connection between early British mod and the kind of 60s mod they experienced (however different it might have been). I have also added a section covering mod in America and around the world. These are badly needed changes.

I have also changed the name of the section, "Decline..." and re-named it "Swinging London and later developments." Why should Swinging London be treated as a "decline," when, to people here in America, it was seen as the mod big bang? The opinion of the author quoted should be not taken as gospel truth, because it is strictly subjective. An encyclopedia must reflect a comprehensive and objective point of view. We can keep his quote and treat it as a valid opinion, but the article should not be required to agree with one writers' personal sentiment, when facts (i.e. size and scope: Swinging London and the mod boom in America,1965-1968) point to the contrary. Anyway, his remarks were intended to be qualitative, not quantitative, so by putting "Decline" in the title heading, it gives the false impression that mod was dying out in 1966, which is just simply not true, certainly not to people in America and other countries, where it was just beginning to take off. Garagepunk66 (talk) 19:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I also added a picture of swinging London, circa. 1966, to provide a helpful visual image of an important aspect of 60s mod. The article should not treat this phase as unimportant or anticlimactic. To Americans, Swinging London was an inspiring introduction to mod, and seen as the epitome of mod. Garagepunk66 (talk) 20:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I added some helpful sourced information about the swinging London period (i.e. Blow Up, etc.). Then, I made some changes in the order of sections. Obviously, discussion of Swinging London and skinheads do not belong in the same section, so I separated them. I put the "U.S./world" section right after discussion of Swinging London, because, Swinging London was such a catalyst for the spread of worldwide (and there is such a profound connection there). Then, I created a "Decline" section and made some improvements in language. It begins with Dick Hebdige's critique of the commercial aspects post-'64 (I kept that out of respect to that perspective, which is perfectly valid). Then, the article goes on to discusses dissipation of movement at end of the decade. After that, I created a section, Offshoots, which includes all prior text (unaltered) covering some of the later movements, such as the early skinheads.

Note: I realize that there are some who would prefer that the article only pertain to the early street culture aspects of mod, but the article has to be fair, objective, and comprehensive. We want people form around the world to be able to read this article and not be baffled by any exclusion of mod as their countries experienced it. I think that we now have an article that is broadly comprehensive and reflects the different manifestations of mod in the 60s, both and England and worldwide. Garagepunk66 (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Another note: Sorry. I made several edits while I was accidentally logged out (on 3/26 and 3/29). But I can confirm that they were mine. I put explanations on most of them. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Spylab, I appreciate the improvements on the headings--you have a definite point about using simpler titles. But, we need to make a slight change to the title that reads "Late 60s." We need to change it from that to "Mid-late 60s. "Swinging London" is usually thought of as beginning in 1965. After 1964, the street fighting largely stopped, as London began to swing with nightlife and as the pop culture and as the fashion element came into full flower. To quote Mick Brown, in his article in the Telegraph:

By the mid-Sixties, “mod” had become an all-purpose adjective applied to anything young, fresh, unconventional and stylish..."

1966 is usually thought of as the high point/epitome of Swinging London mod (i.e. period covered in Blow Up, etc.) Chronologically 1965 and 1966 would fall into the mid-sixties, not late. By 1969, mod was pretty-much finished, so we have to take that into account. Hence, "Mid-late 60s."

I also think that we should have a separate section for "Offshoots." It needs a separate treatment. American readers are going to get baffled and confused (they have no idea who hard mods are--and the whole thing about skinheads is going to seem incomprehensible after discussing Swinging London, psychedelia, and hippies). By dividing it off as its own section, it will be more clear and decipherable to those of us on this side of the pond. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I have made the necessary additions, so I think that the article, now, better reflects the worldwide diversity and universal experience of mod in the 60s. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Statement about band The Modd may have to be romoved

The statement just added about the Maryland band The Modd (in revival section) may have to be removed. It is completely usourced. There is no Wiki article for this band. I can find nothing about them on the internet. I'm sure they are a good band, but we have to know more about them in order for them to be included here. I went ahead and made grammatical corrections in the statement about them, but once again, it will have to be removed if someone cannot come up with credible references. Garagepunk66 (talk) 20:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

British Class System

My hazy recollections of these "cultures" are this. The mods were middle class kids still living at home and attending university, or advanced cooking classes like Robin Tripp. Scooters did not require parking permits at these institutions. Rockers rode big bikes, Trumpies and the like, as they'd been working in scrap metal yards since age 12, and had constructed the bikes from junk parts. Skinheads rode scooters, usually Honda 90s by then, in the 1970s for a different reason. Some gangs used scooters to ride through traffic jams banging immobile cars with sledge hammers. The said cars were being driven by ex-mods taking their kids to school.27.33.81.127 (talk) 08:51, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

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Online prescence

Hi, i dont mean to bother or be intrusive but i feel the small scale continuation from the 90s - 2010s should probably be covered. Alongside this there has been a large online presence of mod fashion from around 2020 but it is very hard to get decent sources? I think this should be mentioned in the wiki page but im new to editing and cant do it justice really. Thankyou - i have a sort of drafted paragraph if it helps anyone start Brit1115 (talk) 21:11, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Disco culture and Saturday Night Fever

I don't have time to write this paragraph but I just watched an interesting show (Music Box) in which Nik Cohn cites the mods as a large influence on his article Tribal Rites of the New Saturday Night which was turned into Saturday Night Fever. It would make a good paragraph and interesting reference. 2601:482:4200:3310:47:D051:B520:21FC (talk) 04:50, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Alan Fletcher

As the Author of Quadrophenia, the book on which the movie was based, I feel that Alan shoukd be mentioned and credited far more prominently than he is !? 81.110.17.42 (talk) 09:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)