Talk:Dory

Untitled

Saving this as Wiktionary fodder: ' Dory is also a nickname. For females, it is usually short for "Doris," "Dorinne" (or "Doreen"), "Dorothy," or "Dorothea" (or "Dorthea"); for males it is most often short for "Theodore." ' Stan 04:37, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Revamped

Okay, I took the big plunge and rewrote this article. The last version was spotty and the information was not terribly accurate. I have tried to provide enough references to sustain my facts. Any contributions are welcome. --Bcooke99 (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

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The formatting looks good. Two quibbles, the paragraph starting "The hullform is characterized by flat sides angled about 30 degrees" is only correct when talking about Bank type dories. Nearly every other type of dory is round sided' (or knuckle sided to use a commonly used term in the dory world). That is why I removed the sentence and didn't bother trying to re-incorporate the idea elsewhere. The second issue is the picture. The picture is not a typical dory type. Rather it is a relatively new, 'light pleasure' adaptation designed by Phil Bolger of Gloucester, MA. USA and named "Gloucester Gull" and sometimes referred to as a "Gloucester light dory" (not to be confused with traditional Gloucester type dories). On the other hand, finding non-copyright pictures may be hard to come by and that picture may be the best we can do for now. It at least gives a sense of what a dory is even if it not particularly typical. Overall though, great edit. Thanks. Bcooke99 (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph about hullform restates the ideas in a different way and makes a couple of additional points. I think it's sometimes a good idea to restate key ideas more than once, but just change it or remove it altogether if you are not happy with it. I removed the "flat sides" bit. Perhaps you could further emphasise the flat sides contrast in the banks dory article? (Bye the way, shouldn't you mention, in the opening sentence for the banks dory, that the bottom is flat?)

Is the image you are referring to the image that belongs to the menu at the top right? The menu image needs to look visually attractive, just as something to look at. Also the menu image needs to, at least symbolically, evoke a sense of the subject matter of the menu. Since the same menu sits on many pages, it doesn't have be accurate as far as any particular page goes. Then there is the matter of what is actually available in wikimedia. But it would great to have a better picture. --Geronimo20 (talk) 01:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Gazela

Using the phraseology "such as the Gazela" is misleading since this ship was not at all typical of ships using Bank dories. Yes. It did have dories on deck at some point (at least until they put engines in) but this is one barquentine among thousands of schooners. Also note that there isn't a single reference to substantiate any information on the Gazela article.

But yes. It did (most likely) fish with 35 dories stored on deck. Bcooke99 (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Banks dory production data

I was thinking the Bank dory production data would be better placed on the Bank dory article itself. It seems a bit like too much information here. Any thoughts? Bcooke99 (talk) 15:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that, and have transferred it. Bye the way, I like your four point definition of a dory, but can you reference it? --Geronimo20 (talk) 00:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I added the reference. In the process I found more information that required some tweaking to the paragraph. It seems the more I research this topic the more muddied, confused, and vague that actual origins and proper definitions of the dory type really are. Now I am finding information about very similar boats all over Europe during the medieval period. It seems the dory shape was probably quite widely known and only became vastly more popular with the cheap availability of wide sawn boards and the demand from the emerging commercial fishing industry in the New England area.--Bcooke99 (talk) 01:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Links

The external link to the 'The Dory Page' seems like an odd link to include without comments. Large, half-dories made out of aluminum,some with trawling gear installed is definitely on the outer fringe of the dory world. Bcooke99 (talk) 15:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it should be renamed something like "Contemporary dories" or just removed? --Geronimo20 (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I am actually wondering if my own definition of a dory is outdated. My experience and familiarity is with the 'traditional' dory type but that isn't to say the type can't change. What is often called a dory today by new boat manufacturers and builders is often markedly different from the popular workboat models of the past. Maybe the definition can change. After all, a lot of changes to the dory occured during their heyday too and they are all referred to as 'dories'. That doesn't make defining them for Wikipedia any easier though. I have based my comments on the only scholarly works I know of and they don't make any mention of the newest types referred to by some as dories. With the type effectively dead, except by a few rare builders and owners, the term 'dory' seems to have been diluted by others looking to capitalize on the dory reputation. I suppose as long as the boat meets the basic criteria listed in the article it should be called a dory. Even if the final form and function is different from the popular types of the past. I think I should retract my original statement about the external link. 'Contemporary Dories' is probably a good name for them after all. :-)--Bcooke99 (talk) 23:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

That first paragraph...

I continue to be bothered by the first paragraph since it runs counter to a lot of the information I am finding. "The dory is a small, shallow-draft boat, about five to seven metres (15 to 22 feet) long. It is is a lightweight and versatile boat with high sides, a flat bottom and sharp bows. They are easy to build because of their simple lines." 1. The 5-7 metre reference. This seems a bit restrictive 2. lightweight? That depends on the variant. 3. high sides? again, only one variant really exhibits this trait (banks) 4. Sharp bows. I guess I don't know what this means. Some are straight, others are curved. None that I know of are plumb so maybe this is okay. 5. The 'for centuries' reference. They were really only popular in one small corner of the world for about a hundred years. They appear to have existed long before in various forms all over Europe (inland and coastal) and continue to be built occasionally still today. There are some modern fishing boats that share some traits. Whether they are really 'dories' is questionable IMHO but I have already voiced my opinion about how hard it really is to pin down the true definition of this type. I would like to check the source but there doesn't seem to be one.--Bcooke99 (talk) 01:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced statement

I removed the unsourced statement "Sailing dories are often referred to by the generic name, sharpies. A class by this name was used in the Olympic Games until the 1960s." because it was unsourced, and is contradicted by this source:

• Brewer ES and Brewer T (1993) Understanding Boat Design Pages 10–11, McGraw-Hill Professional. ISBN 9780070076945. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:25, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

With due deference to Mr Brewer:Using his own definition there are far more differences within the various types of Sharpies and Dories than there is between them.ie Neither term has an exact definition. They have come to mean different things over time as designers have tinkered with the basic shape. The photo shown of the power boat is nothing like a traditional dory.1 It has a tombstone bow( not stern)2 It has a very wide transome.3 An OB in a well.4 Its bottom is quite wide. Incidently in the picture of the powerboat it is the topsides that are deep ,not the gunwhales,which are high and fairly straight. Alumimium boat manufacturers often just use a term as a marketing tool without any real reference to tradition because they are often ex sheet metal workers rather then boat designers in my experience.1%

I have thought similar things about that image, and wondered whether it should be there at all. The looseness of the common use of the term "dory" could perhaps be mentioned in the article. As far as Brewer goes, the issue is that his views have been published by a reputable publisher. You cannot counter that on Wikipedia by just asserting your own correctness and authority. You may well be correct, but to counter Brewer on Wikipedia you would need to have your own views published by an equally reputable publisher. So that is the dilemma. The alternative is to find other existing sources which contradict Brewer, say in Google Books or possible in Google Scholar. Anyway, please persist in your efforts to improve these boat articles, which is much appreciated. Your additions won't be removed, by me at any rate, so long as they are not contradicted by reliable sources (which is not to say the reliable source is correct! Bye the way, please sign your communications with 4 tildes (~~~~) --Epipelagic (talk) 06:25, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Not a Grand Banks Dory

At the bottom of the page the third boat across with the white and green hull, is not any kind of dory at all. It is a carvel construction round bilge hull with no dory features at all.

Continued work

The first western river dories (as defined on this page) are hard to ID a rower to, except for the Colorado River from Green River, WY, to Yuma, Arizona, through Grand Canyon. I have added that history with citations, and a photo. RRFWTommartin (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

'"schooner barque" Gazela Primeiro

...is an atypical ship for the Banks, using, here, an atypical name. It does not belong here. An example of hoofbeats should be horses, not zebras. Anmccaff (talk) 21:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

She was a boat specifically built to function as a mother boat to dories fishing the Grand Banks. And there is a Wikipedia article on the boat. What are you talking about? Why are zebra hooves inferior to horse hooves? And what have hooves to do with dories? --Epipelagic (talk) 04:54, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, maybe. She may also have been intended as a coaster as well; there's some debate about that. More to the point, there were thousands of dory-fishers on the Banks; all but a handful were proper schooners, rigged completely fore-and-aft. The idea that this is justified by the fact that "there is a Wikipedia article on the boat" is almost beneath comment, but I will anyway: here are a solid dozen articles, just off the top of my head...and also, although not all the same names, off a search of Wiki on "fishing schooner, just on the first page... on fishing schooners.

Zebra? Zebra. A figure of speech which has long escaped its hippocratical origins, it refers to seeking possible but unlikely answers over more common ones. Anmccaff (talk) 20:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Dürey

While there is some minor resemblance of Dürer's boat to a proto-dory, there's a good bit more to a punt with some flare and rocker...an almost exact resemblance, actually, and Gardner's accompanying language reflects assertion more than assurance. Anmccaff (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think Dürer's boat looks remarkably like a dory. But my personal opinion here carries no weight, the same weight as your personal opinion. If you want to give more weight to your personal view you could publish a book with a reputable publisher arguing your case... then again... why bother? --Epipelagic (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

No, one could simply start by reading the Garden book, and note that his writing on the boat in the painting, as a whole, is far more nuanced than the excerpt quoted. Or one could look at other comparisons made by others, equally expert, to diverse other craft. Anmccaff (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Chapelle vs Lowell

I think this is obvious; we should not state as a fact that Lowell invented the dory when reputable sources suggest it may have been around 60 years prior. Anmccaff (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gloucester dory

Please see this related AfD. There is a discussion about merging content. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:07, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Pinging possibly active editor Epipelagic --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

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"Doree" listed at Redirects for discussion

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