Talk:Section sign

Czech keyboard dedicated entry

Czech keyboard has a dedicated paragraph button. Should be added, but I can't edit the page...

Czech: § (key between ů and ↵ Enter on ANSI layout and ů and ¨ on most ISO layouts) 217.30.66.51 (talk) 13:14, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Kalahari Bushmen

I removed all paragraph:

In the written language of the Kalahari Bushmen, the section sign is used to warn of nearby snakes, owing to its striking visual similarity to a pair of snakes intertwined. Snakes in Kalahari culture are associated with strong superstitious beliefs; many believe that simply reading about a snake can be fatal. Accordingly, the section sign can either indicate real snakes, or a written paragraph which mentions them.

It was unsourced, written by an anonymous user who was already warned for vandalism and it looks like nonsense. --Amir E. Aharoni 10:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Origin

I removed this sentence:

For an effect comparable to the contemporary use of bold type, early scribes would double stroke letters, hence the sign was developed from a double stroked letter S.

Apart from being unsourced, it is only one (and a rather uncommon) of the possible explanations for the origin of the sign. other theories include a double S referring to the latin "signum sectionis", a derivation from the letter C referring to the latin "caput", as well as various combinations of egyptian, greek and roman signs. It is an ongoing debate, and cannot be finally answered at this point. The various explanations can surely be integrated into the article, but preferably in a special section and with citation.

Meaning in Poland

In Poland, this sign means "paragraph," not "section." The Polish penal code, in turn, is organised in paragraphs. Thus, this sign shows up on the covers of books about law and on law enforcement officers' badges.

Description in this stub does not do a good job explaining that.

Yes and no. Indeed in Poland this sign is called "paragraph", but it is used nevertheless as a sign denoting sections. Basic unit in Polish laws is an article, not section (or paragraph). For instance the crime of ordinary homicide is in an article 148 § 1 in criminal code while homicide with the firearm in an article 148 § 2. Only very important laws use § signs (like criminal code, civil code, code of civil/administrative/criminal proceedings etc.) Other laws use so called "ustęps" instead of sections (§). IAAL. Przepla 20:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not entirely true. Paragraph is actually used as a basic unit of legal text in government's regulations ("rozporządzenie", "zarządzenie", "uchwała" etc.) which are, by theirs nature, placed hierarchically lower than parliament's acts, either codes and ordinary acts, and as such could be regarded as "less important" (but in fact are the significant part of polish legal system). In the case the prevalent denoting pattern is e.g. "§ 1 ust. 1. ......." (section 1 subsection 1). Moreover, the paragraph sign is also used as an universal sign of independent piece of legal text in all kinds of written contracts, by-laws, organisational regulations and alike. Mroq (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

In Germany, Legal Codes are also organised in what is called "Paragraphs" in German. The §-sign is used. However, I can assure you that the widley accepted English translation for the German "Paragraph" is indeed section. I guess, it will be the same for the Polish word for §. 138.253.235.78 (talk) 10:43, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Also in Slovak, this sign means paragraf, which is correctly translated as section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.212.36.211 (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the issue here isn't the name of the character as such, it's that in German, Polish, etc., the word "paragraph" means section, while the English word "paragraph" means something completely different (namely, a grouping of sentences, unrelated to being a unit in a legal sense; the German word, for example, is "Absatz"). Consequently, calling it a "paragraph sign" in English is incorrect, because an English paragraph is something totally different. (FWIW, outside of legalese, the English "section" translates to German "Abschnitt".) — tooki (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

The instructions for typing § on MS Windows is incorrect

At least when you are using a Swedish keyboard. Nopedia 14:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

They're also incorrect for macOS

At least as of the latest version 10.14.6. It's now Option-5. jen729w 10:00, 21 August 2019 (Australia)

Deleted Spore from list

"Many Maxis games, from SimCity 3000 onwards, including The Sims, The Sims Online, The Sims 2 and Spore, use this symbol (with a very round loop) to represent the unit of currency in the SimNation, the simoleon." There is no reference for Spore using Simoleans as any type of currency, in fact it has been suggested that 'evolution/eco points' or something similar will be a 'currency' in said game, I am removing Spore from this list, at least until someone turns up real proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KitsuneDragonRA (talk • contribs) 12:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the references to Maxis games? If they were removed for good reason, can someone link to change that led to their removal for the benefit of future editors? InsertGenericMemeHere (talk) 17:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Apparently, in the Maxis game, Spore, the in-game currency denoted by the symbol is a "Sporebuck", in use during the Civilization and Space stages of development. Also, the sign continues in use in The Sims franchise. The question arises, however, as to whether such usage is sufficiently noteworthy to merit re-inclusion in the article. As The Sims is undeniably a prominent game series with an international audience, it may. 2600:2B00:9214:4800:248D:F65:7219:B6A5 (talk) 02:15, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree; I think its use to stand for Simoleons count as a use of the section sign "in pop culture", and merits inclusion. 122.213.236.124 (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Isn't this symbol called the scilicet?

Isn't the "section sign" actually called the scilicet? Calling it a "section sign" or "section symbol" is like calling the ampersand an "and sign," or the interpunct a "middle dot," or the tilda a "squiggly line." Shouldn't this entry be called the scilicet with a redirect from "Section sign"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CShippee (talk • contribs) 02:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

-->I agree, I was taught in law school § was the symbol for scilicet, meaning "to wit", directing a persons attention to a particular section. --Noahsachs (talk) 13:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

As I remember from my law school this character is derived from the abbreviation "SS" and in handwriting should be written as two connected "S" one over another. In middle ages it meant something like "it is given", "it is announced". I cannot provide the proper source though (but Viz. seems to corroborate it). Mroq (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Viz. is explicit that the symbol is sometimes used to mean scilicet. So this text at Viz. should be removed (though that seems less preferable) or moved to this page, where it seems more appropriate anyway:

"In legal usage, scilicet appears abbreviated as ss. It can also appear as a section sign (§) in a caption, where it is used to provide a statement of venue, that is to say a location where an action is to take place." Joel (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Viz. doesn't have a citation for that assertion and, given that it was challenged over ten years ago without response, my inclination is to delete it, period. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:35, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Could scilicet be considered a special use of the symbol rather than its generic name? None of the following entries for scilicet mention a symbol or "§" specifically, although they do list the abbreviations "ss." and "sc."

• Merriam-Webster
• Merriam-Webster Word of the Day
• American Heritage

Contrast this with ampersand, which is defined as "a character typically & ..." [emphasis added]. Pslide (talk) 18:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought this was called the "stephanus symbol". anyone heard it called that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.205.102.187 (talk) 07:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

No in the USA it is § used for designating a Part like DOT 49 CFR §172.101 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.75.255.201 (talk) 15:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Why do I remember the symbol also being known as "hurricane"? (In addition to its other names.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.241.230 (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It is called the "silcrow." See below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.207.71.1 (talk) 19:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

This is not the name of the symbol but means “it is permitted to know” derivation Middle English then Latin. It is a lot like viz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C50:407F:FF66:BC65:BC9E:C203:4069 (talk) 15:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Ubuntu instructions redundant

Under the heading Typing character there are instructions listed for Ubuntu and for the X Window System. The instructions are the same because Ubuntu uses the X Window System (as do most other dekstop GNU/Linux distributions). The instructions for Ubuntu should be removed because they are redundant and putting the instructions under X Window System is more general (i.e. people using the X Window System on Debian or Fedora can follow the instructions too, not just Ubuntu users). If it there is any concern that Ubuntu users might not be able to find the instructions unless the word Ubuntu is used, then maybe a note can be included to say that these instructions also apply to Ubuntu because it uses the X Window System. If nobody responds to this for a few weeks I will do it myself. --sinisterstuf ^(talk) 19:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC) §§§

There may be some truth in this, but it'd be more of a GTK issue instead of a specifically Ubuntu issue since GTK has its own built-in compose table that is sometimes different than the system XCompose file.

Compose+!+S renders "Ṣ" for me under KDE. Since I have GTK set to use the system compose table, could someone verify that sequence?

Compose+s+o and Compose+o+s both work.

Dhraakellian (talk) 15:08, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I found this, which shows that it is indeed mapped that way for GTK if not overridden with XIM. I'll clarify that in the article. Dhraakellian (talk) 17:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Is this also a letter in an alphabet?

On 14 Nov 2013, the article Sahoyúé-§ehdacho appeared on the main page, in the "Did you know?" section. That article says that "§ehdacho" is a word in the Slavey language. In turn, the Slavey language article explains that Slavey "is written using Canadian Aboriginal syllabics or the Latin script." This symbol does not look anything like any of the Canadian Aboriginal syllabics, so I have to presume that it is some form of Slavey/Latin script. Anyone know any more about this letter, such as what it is called or how it is pronounced? --Keeves (talk) 14:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I came here with the same query: how it is pronounced when used in writing First Nation languages. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

silcrow

The proper name of this character is the "silcrow" though it is now known popularly as the section sign. The article should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.207.71.1 (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Untrue. That's an informal nickname, rarely used, a sort of pun on pilcrow. It's not the name in Unicode and it does not appear in a Google Books search. 82.28.153.207 (talk) 12:33, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I am a professional type designer, and I have never encountered the term "silcrow". Citation needed. Devanatha (talk) 14:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Because it serves a similar function, somewhere it started to be used as a similar to pilcrow. The first part sil- is Latin for compare. The second part -crow goes back to 1500 in pilcrow which it theorized to be a corruption in Middle English of the Latin paragraphus. and

“ Walter W. Skeat, Notes on English Etymology: Chiefly Reprinted from the Transactions of the Philological Society (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1901), pp. 215-216, describes in detail the phonetic development of the word pilcrow: First of all, the Lat. paragraphus became F. paragraphe. This is given by Cotgrave, who has: 'paragraphe, a Paragraffe, or Pillcrow; ... as much as is comprehended in one sentence or section.' The next form is paragraffe, just cited as an E. word from Cotgrave. After this, the middle a was dropped, and an excrescent t added at the end. This is quoted by Way from the Ortus Vocabulorum: 'Paragraphus, Anglice, a pargrafte in writing.' The next step is the corruption from pargrafte to the form pylcrafte in the Promptorium. This is rather violent, but we must remember that the change of r to l is the commonest of all changes in every Aryan language, that the prefixes par- and per- were convertible, and that the change from per- to pil- occurs in the common English word pilgrim, in which per- passes into pil- through the Ital. pell- in pellegrino. This shows the precise process; pargrafte became *pergrafte, then *pelgrafte, then *pilgrafte, and finally pilcrafte, with c for g. The change from g to c easily took place when the original form had become entirely obscured. After this, a further corruption took place, from pilcrafte to pilcrow. This was due to mere laziness. The excrescent t was again dropped, giving pilcraf, and then the -craf became -crow. Hence we get the full order of successive forms, viz. paragraphe, paragraffe, *pargraf, pargrafte, *pergrafte, *pelgrafte, *pilgrafte, pilcrafte, *pilcraf, pilcrow. Not all of these forms are found, but a sufficient number of them appear to enable us to trace the complete process; at the same time, it is highly probable that some of these steps were passed over by a sudden leap. We may assume, as sufficiently proved, that pilcrow and paragraph, words used with precisely the same meaning, are mere doublets.” 2600:6C50:407F:FF66:BC65:BC9E:C203:4069 (talk) 16:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Lantern symbol

In Unix terminfo descriptions and used in ncurses, this symbol is called the "lantern symbol", but the origins of that elude me. Google books cite to Programmer's Guide to nCurses by Dan Gookin. -Elijah (talk) 04:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Scilicet

The "Scilicet" link is merely a link to the page itself. I think we should remove this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guyy8fh (talk • contribs) 03:22, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Silcrow re-visited

The previous discussion asked for a source for the term "silcrow", but it still seems to not be present in the article (though there is a redirect from silcrow, which is inconsistent if nothing else). There's plenty more evidence of the term's usage in a Google search of the web and images, including the source I cited when adding it back into the article. Here's a sampling: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. These are by no means official – they just demonstrate that the term is in use out there (understandably, as it's cleaner to say than the Unicode name, "section sign"). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 00:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Usage on Wikipedia

This isn't mentioned. At the very least a link, and a mention of the slink template used to produce it? CapnZapp (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

@CapnZapp: Done with h§tnote. Acceptable?--~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 00:41, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Maybe begin with a less-technical "For the usage of § on Wikipedia, see ..." We do have several instances where we link from general article space into "wiki help space" (for lack of the formal term). Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 08:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2019

Add in Uses that it is used almost unanimously to represent Parseltongue in Harry Potter Fanfictions. Justjustin2300 (talk) 01:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. No source given. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:05, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

use as the 'simoleon' symbol?

When I was growing up, my first encounter with this symbol was from the game series 'the Sims'. Does anyone else think this is notable enough to include in a section or paragraph maybe about it's modern cultural significance?

As it was my first encounter with the symbol.. I always recognise this as the simoleon symbol ^^. I'm probably not the only one though, so I was surprised theres no reference to the Sims in this article.

If you can find a third-party wp:reliable source that records it as culturally significant, then it can go in. We try to avoid making our own judgements. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:59, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Font renderings

I deleted this section

Font renderings

Various glyphs for the section sign grapheme in different fonts:

Default font	Arial	Calibri	Code2000	Courier	Fixed	Helvetica	Palatino	Corbel	Arabic
§	§	§	§	§	§	§	§	§	§

Because it is wildly misleading unless the reader has all of these fonts installed. In each case where they do not, font substitution will be applied: in the extreme case, they will all be substituted and the default font displayed in every case, and all cells will be identical.

If anyone really believes that this is useful information, they will need to create an image file such as given at dollar sign or pound sign. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:55, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• Good move. I've done the same at Interrobang. Bazza (talk) 09:16, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Vim digraph

The Keyboard entry section could include a line with the relevant Vim digraph, which is S+E.

I would do it myself, but this is a protected page, apparently. SchipholAirport (talk) 13:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done I used ⇧ Shift+SE because the digraph is case-sensitive. —Dexxor (talk) 09:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! SchipholAirport (talk) 11:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2021

Under § Keyboard entry it states that for MacOS the key is `⌥ Option`+`5`, but in current Mac Mojave it is `⌥ Option+6` Rmedved7 (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Yep, just tested it. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 17:30, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

@Pupsterlove02: Please remember to close, thank you! --Ferien (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2021

All Scandinavian keyboard layouts (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish) include the character on the top left key, that is: the key to the left of number 1. On Norwegian keyboards it is shared with pipe: Pressing the key itself gives pipe; pressing shift plus the key yields paragraph (section: §). On Swedish keyboards it is shared with ½: Pressing the key itself gives paragraph (section: §); pressing shift plus the key yields the fraction ½. On Danish keyboards it is shared with ½: Pressing the key itself gives the fraction ½; pressing shift plus the key yields paragraph (section: §). CannedMan (talk) 13:34, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2021

Add this right after Vim Keyboard entry |Emacs: Ctrl+x+8 followed by digraph ⇧ Shift+S

 Done PianoDan (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Reliability of "oldgamesdownload.com"

As per @John Maynard Friedman's far earlier advice, I have managed to find a user manual for the Deluxe Edition of The Sims (chosen because while there is an archive of the original Sims manual, the image supplement for the section on finances is too low-resolution to discern any meaningful text, as well as the fact that the Deluxe Edition's manual is virtually indistinguishable in terms of information provided) which could provide some basis for The Sims' inclusion on this page.

However, reading through WP:UGC begs the question; should the source of the digitised manual, 'oldgamesdownload.com' count as a reliable source in this context?

As far as I'm able to tell from their 'About Us' and 'FAQ' pages, they only offer abandonware and retro games at no charge (claiming to host the files on sites such as archive.org), in addition to the control schemes and user manuals for those same games. While it is technically user-generated content, given that a main feature of their website allows users to both request and fulfil requests for abandonware not already on the site, could a citation from them nevertheless count as acceptable use?

W0nderhat (talk) 06:56, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately that source just presents you with a new problem: copyright. Wikipedia policy is not to be an accessory to copyright theft and so not link to sites that do so. See talk:backslash. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:57, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Thinking about this a little more, you have no obligation to say where you found the bootleg copy. You don't have to give a URL. It is still WP: verifiable, just not as easy to verify. You would have to use {{cite book}} rather than {{cite web}}, which is no great hardship? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:49, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Copy that, will look into it more in the morning W0nderhat (talk) 13:27, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

In the commonly used US-International keyboard layout, it's accessible through AltGr+Shift+S: § — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.61.180.106 (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The US International layout standard keyboard doesn't come with an AltGr key, did you mean Ctrl+Alt+⇧ Shift+s?. Or have you got a European keyboard but you have US-international mapping set? [Popular in NL, I understand]. Which OS are you using? The language setting may also be relevant if it is not en-us.

It would be really helpful if you could find an external source that supports what you say. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC) struck out and replaced my silly error 00:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't the right-hand Alt key work as AltGr when you set "Us International" as the keyboard on Windows?Spitzak (talk) 20:11, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that is what the relevant bit of QWERTY says, but 77.61.180.106 hasn't specified which OS. But to avoid prolonging the agony, let's just assume that they meant Windows so I have updated the article accordingly. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2022

MacOs : Latest version of MacOs uses ⌥ Option+5 rather than ⌥ Option+6 for the § symbol. Tharun Dyanish (talk) 20:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide a reliable source, like an Apple product manual or news source. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 10:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

@Tharun Dyanish: Your statement is credible and no-one doubts your word, it just needs supporting evidence. For instance, does it apply to every apple keyboard setting worldwide? (Obviously not.) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2023

change option + 6 to option + 5 in mac VinayakHk (talk) 13:30, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see the previous discussion. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

On Windows, you have to use the numeric keypad to enter characters

On Windows, when using the ALT+1234 method of adding characters, you must use the numeric keypad. Using the number row will not produce the desired effect and may accidently activate some other command(s) that may be bound to the ALT+#### being typed. This should be made clear for all instances where directions specify using ALT+### to add characters that may not be available on a user's keyboard.

For evidence, try it and see what happens (or does not happen). Pressing ALT+171 with a US keyboard and the en-US locale active, you should get a one-half sign: ½. Now try it gain using the number row. JamesRTwine (talk) 17:09, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@JamesRTwine: Thank you for the feedback and welcome to Wikipedia. If you click on the item Alt+0167, it takes you to the page that explains Windows Alt codes (I haven't looked, is your clarification recognised there? If not, please repeat your remarks at talk:Alt code because it should be). Per policy Wikipedia is not a manual, we don't go into detail in every article about to do things on every OS as it would rapidly become unmanageable. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

No, it is addressed there. I never thought to try to click on the Alt+0167 text as it did not resemble a link to me.

Peace! JamesRTwine (talk) 04:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

add Belgian keyboard to list of keyboards who have a dedicated way to access the § sign:

Some keyboards include dedicated ways to access §: Belgian: § (key left of è) Geverin (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 11:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Geverin:, is that the Belgian French or the Belgian Dutch or both? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It's all the Belgian keyboards

- Belgian (Comma)

- Belgian (Period)

- Belgian French Geverin (talk) 13:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)