Talk:Billy Graham

Graham attended Bible College in Temple Terrace

The reference's title https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/rev-billy-graham-attended-bible-college-in-temple-terrace/67-521631530 is "Rev. Billy Graham attended Bible College in Temple Terrace". Nowhere does it or the 4-minute news piece state he graduated from the school, only that he attended there. Second, "evangelical theology" is absolutely not mentioned in the prose or the news piece. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I stand corrected. The second section starts, "In 1940 Graham graduated from the Florida Bible Institute." However, his field of study and his degree are not mentioned. Feel free to wither copy and paste the sentence that supports it or list the time in the video where it's stated. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Graham lifetime audience

Somehow this statement keeps reappearing. "As of 2008, Graham's estimated lifetime audience, including radio and television broadcasts, topped 2 billion." (talk) The source quoted is not accurate and is pure opinion. The source is an editorial, which not factual and doesn't present any proof to back it up. It would like my friend publishing an article saying (talk) has 1 million followers on social media. Or them publishing an article with me saying I have 1 million social media followers. The fact an article is published does not make it true. Wikipedia needs actual facts, not editorial opinions; otherwise, Wikipedia becomes a useless source of false assumption that would be no different that modern-day media. — Preceding undated comment added 08:06, 17 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SineBot (talk • contribs) 09:54, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

@Dema9049: How this is being restored should not come as a mystery to you as I have publicly reverted each time you reverted and have explained it on your talk page. You claim it is not accurate and is pure opinion. It is not our job to question the source. If you have a source to counter it, feel free to supply it. Until then, we cannot simple remove the text and leave the reference in-place (as you have been doing). I will point you to WP:RS and you can argue your truthiness claims there.

There is no source to support your claim of 1 million social followers, but even if there were, it would not negate the 2 billion viewers that have been cited. At best, we should add it. In short, you have no grounds for removing the claim that is sourced to that article. However, if you insist on challenging that source, there are http://www.travisagnew.org/2013/07/22/the-chain-of-events-for-billy-grahams-conversion/ https://dartreview.com/the-reverend-billy-graham/ https://regularbaptistpress.org/2018/02/23/reflections-billy-graham-fundamentalism-legacy-godly-man/ https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/billy-graham-days-noah-are-returning-earth and the following list over 2.2. billion https://www.journal-advocate.com/2018/02/22/remembering-billy-graham/ https://bossierpress.com/billy-graham-warns-the-us/ https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/billy-graham/how-rev-billy-graham-changed-a-man-who-changed-me/83-522730818 . I am certain that there are more news sources that claim the 2.2 billion number, that were published after Graham's death. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

The claim of an audience of 2 billion is clearly misleading. It's obviously not 2 billion different people. I'm a teacher. If I see a 5 classes of 30 students 100 times in a year (typical figures), I don't claim to have taught 15,000 students in that year. We should not be including such silly nonsense. HiLo48 (talk) 03:55, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

However, that is how cumulative viewership is calculated. For instance, FIFA World Cup viewership: in 2018 it was 3 billion viewers, 2014 it was 3.2 billion and 2010 it was 26 billion. Regardless, we have sources that make this claim, it is not us making it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

We can choose to include or exclude sourced content, based on whether it is good content or not. I don't teach 15,000 students every year. An article on me would never say that I do. The claim about Graham is a variation on WP:PEACOCK language. It's obviously designed to impress readers, and is doing so in a misleading way. HiLo48 (talk) 04:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

It is good content though and not designed to impress anyone but to accurately reflect the cumulative audience. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:28, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense. Of course it's designed to impress people! It's NOT good content. HiLo48 (talk) 04:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

As already stated, it is common practice and so not unusual in any way. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:33, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I simply repeat my view that it's bad practice. It serves no useful purpose. HiLo48 (talk) 04:47, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

HiLo48 is correct, it's bad practice. It serves no useful purpose. FYI much of what you linked above are not WP:RS, please familiarize yourself with our reliable sources policy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

The other problem with this sentence and the others about audience size in the lede is that the information is not found, for the most part, in the body of the article. The purpose of the lede is to summarize the contents of the article, not to introduce new information. If these statistics are determined to be properly included in the article, they should probably be in a separate section in the body and then summarized in a single sentence in the lede rather than taking up a substantial portion of it. That would also avoid the issue of undue emphasis. Indyguy (talk) 14:04, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Was Billy Graham actually an Ordained Baptist Minister?

Wikipedia has this phrase describing Billy Graham, "...an ordained Southern Baptist minister," and identifies his denomination as "Baptist." I would have assumed that Billy Graham was Baptist, yet when one studies these schools Billy Graham went to, and the College he was President to, I think this is an assumption. Billy Graham was raised in a Presbyterian Church. From this Article. The College Billy Graham graduated from, Trinity College of Florida, is a Evangelical Bible College, founded by a Pastor of a Christian Missionary Alliance Church, not Baptist, more like John Wesley's teachings. See Wikipedia page Trinity College of Florida. Wheaton College is not a Baptist College at all, rather a non-Denominational, Evangelical College, no Baptist background at all. It shows he had connections with Presbyterians while attending Wheaton College. See Wikipedia page Wheaten College. Billy Graham was President of Northwestern, yet Northwestern is not connected with the Baptist denomination. See Wikipedia page University of Northwestern. His Friend, Charles Templeton, was never Baptist. See Wikipedia page on Charle Templeton. Indeed, when Billy Graham made the statement that Charles Templeton, "...had a shipwreck of his faith." That does not reflect the Baptist's Eternal Security theology, rather a more Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran/Wesley theoloy, (anything in Christianity except Reformed Theology). All my life I was taught Billy Graham was a Baptist, yet I do not see any proof anywhere that Billy Graham was actually a Baptist, or Southern Baptist.Easeltine (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I looked in the body and it doesn't actually look like we have a reliable secondary source for that, we use his foundation as a primary source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary says he was a Southern Baptist - https://www.sbts.edu/graham/ Indyguy (talk) 16:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't personally doubt that Graham was a Southern Baptist but thats not a reliable secondary source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course SBTS is generally a reliable secondary source - why wouldn't it be? But I can't actually find the claim on the page. StAnselm (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Its not possible for a part of an organization to be a reliable secondary source for information about the membership of that organization. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

And I don't think the foundation is a primary source - certainly not now that Graham is dead. StAnselm (talk) 17:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

But did anyone try googling this? The first result for "Billy Graham SBC" is Billy Graham’s Southern Baptist ties highlighted, from Baptist Press. StAnselm (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Not a WP:RS in this context, nor does that article say that Billy Graham was an ordained Baptist Minister. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course it is. StAnselm (talk) 17:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

It isn't independent of the Southern Baptist Convention so its not a WP:RS in this context. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

(ec) And if you need something using the word "ordained": Billy Graham supported Albert Mohler's role at Southern Baptist Seminary from The Courier-Journal. StAnselm (talk) 17:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

That minor article in a local paper by a non-staff contributor appears to have summarized our page on the subject. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Whatever. StAnselm (talk) 17:40, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

"Billy Graham: A Biography of America's Greatest Evangelist" a popular press bio by a non-expert is not a WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, I think you totally misunderstand WP policy on reliable sources. StAnselm (talk) 18:09, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

How about Walter de Gruyter? [1] StAnselm (talk) 18:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes thats a good publisher and the author is a subject matter expert. Well done, thats excellent! Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Note that without a WP:RS saying he wasn't an Ordained Baptist Minister the primary sources are sufficient. It would be nice to have a better source, but IMO we don't strictly need one. If we can't find one its not the end of the world and IMO no changes to the current article would be warranted based on that non-result. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:49, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2024

Please change "The association relocated to Charlotte, North Carolina, in 1999" to, "The association relocated to Charlotte, North Carolina, in 2003"

This is based on information from https://billygraham.org/about/biographies/billy-graham/ His website has "Mr. Graham founded the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) in 1950, headquartered in Minneapolis, Minn., until relocating to Charlotte, N.C., in 2003." EDRAMSEY (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)