Talk:Islam in Indonesia

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tsunami[edit]

why is the tsunami significant to that picture? was the mosque badly destroyed or damaged by it or something? Plugwash 19:19, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A little slow on the reply, but... I believe the mosque mostly survived, but the nice grounds around it were pretty much destroyed, and I'm sure it sustained some damage. Before-and-after airphotos in this PDF, an a picture showing debris here. CDC (talk) 00:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Small complaint[edit]

The highest number of Muslims in a single country makes Indonesia the largest Islamic country in the world.

Indonesia isn't an "Islamic country"; it makes me cringe when I see that. Their state is secular, but the majority of the population adheres to Islam. That sentence should read, Indonesia has the largest number of Muslims than any country in the world. If it stays the way it is, then people might confuse Indonesia with true Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia or Iran, where the state is not secular.

If "Islamic country" is used to describe Indonesia on the basis of percentage of population, then the US and Canada will need to be called Christian countries. If that standard is applied to the US, the absurdity would be readily apparent. --TheNationalist 19:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly speaking, Indonesia is not a "religious country" as in a "Muslim country" or a "Christian country". There are five official religions in Indonesia that are acknowledged by the state, and the constitution states that Indonesia is a country that is "based on the belief of (a monotheistic) God". Historically, this has been a contentious issue, and it still is to this day. So there is no "separation of state and religion" a la the United States, but it is not based on any one religion. Julius.kusuma 00:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I should get around to reading their constitution more closely when I get some time. By the sounds of it, they are secular in the same way that Turkey is. They just make religion subservient to the state. In any event, my main objection to the previous wording of that sentence is still valid. :-) --TheNationalist 02:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How did Islam find its way into Indonesia?[edit]

I've been looking all over Wikipedia trying to find out how Islam entered into Indonesia. I thought this article would talk about the history of this event but it doesn't.

How did Islam find its way into Indonesia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.205.77.120 (talk • contribs) .

A fair question. There's some discussion of the origins of Indonesian Islam in the "Islam in Indonesian society" section of this article; it's also mentioned briefly in History of Indonesia. I think this article would be improved, though, if it had a separate "History of Islam in Indonesia" section... CDC (talk) 00:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Throughout my elementary education some years ago (during Soeharto's reign, mind you) its been drilled in my head that Islam was brought to Indonesia peacefully by trade with ancient Gujarati traders some time in the 1500s. I recall it constantly repeated that this source is what causes Islam in Indonesia to be culturally different in Indonesia to a significant degree as compared to Middle Eastern Islamism.
Unfortunately I don't have any solid references handy. I suppose I could point to my junior-high textbooks, if I could find them again, but would you trust documentation produced by a repressive government? (here's hoping for a worthy history section in this article...) --Lemi4 11:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are many opinion about how islam find its way to Indonesia, In many history book which used in many Indonesian school said that Islam came to Indonesia in 13th century which proved by the establishment of the first islamic kingdom of Samudera Pasai in Aceh. But there is also opinion (usually not mention in school's history book) that said Islam came to Indonesia in 7th or 8th century, and in 13th century was the start of the glorius age of Islam in Indonesia

Celebes?Moluccas?[edit]

What about Islam in Celebes and Moluccas? Sultanate/Kingdom of Gowa? Sultanate of Ternate? Sultanate of Tidore?202.51.228.179 04:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recent additions to history section[edit]

I've started adding material from a bit of reading I've been doing. I've put in a little. I suspect when (and if) i finish adding it, the history section will be deserving of its own article. Merbabu 13:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced POV edit[edit]

I just copyedited the new unsourced POV revision:

  1. There is no history or whatsoever that Islam modernist wants to take Islam out of pesantren. Please give me any source the de-Islamization of pesantren.
  2. Are you confused who is tradisionalits and modernists? You said traditionalists want to add sharia law into Pancasila and then said that Nahdatul Ulama is one of the tradisionalists. Please read again, since when Gus Dur and NU wants sharia law in Indonesia? They are known as more accepting Western ideas than let say the modernist Muhammadiyah.
  3. I removed the following paragraph:
    Traditionalists seem to have had the upper hand in recent years, as evidenced by an upsurge in religious-oriented behavior such as mosque attendance and women wearing concealing garments such as jilbab, mainly driven by societal pressure. This same societal pressure has seen non-Muslims and non-Muslim businesses in some parts of Indonesia forced to conform to traditionalist Muslim expectations such as standards of dress and even being made to close or change their product range during certain times of the year (notably Ramadan). Traditionalists have led opposition to the United States' policies, especially the war in Iraq and its support for Israel. Some members of the MPR are visibly sympathetic to radicals, and have called for Indonesia's government to boost co-operation with other Muslim nations and groups such as Iran and Hezbollah and retaliate diplomatically against the United States for its perceived slights on Islam. Since 2003 there have been a series of very large and well-attended demonstrations in Jakarta and other large cities against the United States and other Western countries. The most notable were during the conflict last year between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, and during the Danish cartoon controversy. Attendants at these demonstrations often display banners and signs with anti-American or anti-Semitic slogans, and are often intended to express solidarity with Muslim terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas.
    Please give the source of those POV paragraphs. If you can find a reliable source and then you can put them back there so I can verify whether your statements are correct. Let me then spell out one by one to which source I want to see for the above paragraph:
    1. Traditionalists ... by an upsurge in religious-oriented behavior such as mosque attendance and women wearing concealing garments such as jilbab, mainly driven by societal pressure. → is mosque attendance an upsurge only for traditionalists? all moslems go to mosque, do you understand Islam? and please elaborate the bold part with a reliable source.
    2. Traditionalists have led opposition to the United States' policies, ... → all Indonesian majority oppose US policy, not only traditionalist Moslem. why do I sense you as anti-traditionalists here?
    3. Some members of the MPR are visibly sympathetic to radicals,... and retaliate diplomatically against the United States → who? how many? give me a reliable source.
    4. Attendants at these demonstrations often display banners and signs with anti-American or anti-Semitic slogans, and... → please give me the source of the bold part, but bear in mind the difference between anti-Semitic (to Jews people) and anti-Israel (as a nation). — Indon (reply) — 11:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All in all, when you add some materials, please bear in mind in WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:ATT, WP:RS and WP:OR. Have you read all of those guidelines? — Indon (reply) — 10:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from 'Religion' section in Indonesia[edit]

I've removed the following from the 'religion' section in Indonesia due to length concern - it could probably find a home here.

One notable difference includes a generally greater level of freedom and higher social status for women.[1] The majority of Indonesian Muslims are generally accepting of differing religious practices and interpretations within their own faith.[1] Although the form of worship may differ, Muslims in Indonesia are typically devout; many have made the pilgrimage to Mecca, for example. More Orthodox Muslims believing in a stricter adherence to Sharia make up a smaller but growing percentage of the population;[2] the wearing of a jilbab, for example, is becoming more common.[3] There is a small but outspoken hard-line Islamist presence in Indonesia, some of which seek to establish Indonesia as an Islamic state. Most Indonesian Muslims, however, are wary of these movements.[4]
  1. ^ a b Fajrul Falaakh, Mohammad (2002-12-11). "Islam in Pluralist Indonesia: Challenges Ahead". The Centre for Independent Studies. Retrieved 2006-10-15. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  2. ^ Puno, Ricardo V. (2007-03-07). "A neighbor in ferment". ABS CBN News. Retrieved 2007-03-09. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  3. ^ Bayuni, Endy (2007-03-02). "Cute Veil! Where'd You Get It?". The Jakarta Post. Retrieved 2007-03-09. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  4. ^ Bayuni, Endy M. (26 November 2003-11-26). "Terrorism Undermines Political Islam in Indonesia". YaleGlobal Online. Yale Center for the Study of Globalization. Retrieved 2007-04-27. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Pan, Esther (July 12, 2005). "INDONESIA: Local Elections". Council on Foreign Relations. Retrieved 2007-04-27.; LaMoshi, Gary (Jun 14, 2006). "Indonesia strikes back at Islamist hardliners". AsiaTimes Online. Asia Times Online Ltd. Retrieved 2007-04-27.

--Merbabu 13:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Problem[edit]

The image of the Banda Aceh mosque obstructs some text, making it appear the article claims 88% of the population label themselves Protestants... I don't know how to fix it.

I've fixed it --Merbabu 22:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shafi'i[edit]

Indonesian Sunnis are Shafi'i right? I remember to have read it somewhere, but I can't find anything about any school in these articles. Help? Mallerd (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well not all of muslims in Indonesia are Shafi'i, like me and my family, we don't follow any maddhab but follow the Qur'an and the Hadith that has been proven its authenticity. StrategyFan (talk) 13:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

History: Raden Patah[edit]

The subsection on Spread of Islam has a dead link to an endnote about Raden Patah. His name no longer appears in the article, but it is cross-referenced under Zheng He and Sunan Ampel. I think he deserves his own WP page. Martindo (talk) 23:57, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Muslim Population in Indonesia[edit]

The Pew Forum has updated numbers from 2010 on Muslim population in Indonesia; theirs are: 88.1% Muslim population for a total of 204,847,000. See http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population/?sort=Pop2010 as source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.204.121 (talk) 01:16, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Post independence[edit]

Not sure what the following really has to do with the post independence Indonesia in general except as someone's attempt to discredit it: "In a 2006 poll, 58% of people surveyed believed adulterers should be stoned, as is mandated by Islamic law, up from 39% five years before." Removed. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.31.177.52 (talk) 22:01, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it discrediting? It is a factual matter and relevant to the article, which by the way is titled Islam in Indonesia. Given the timeline, putting it in the Post independence section of that article seems fine, unless you want to start a new section Religious intensity or something. Julius.kusuma (talk) 13:26, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not relevant to the general topic. It's something that is more fitting for say a "controversies" section. If you want to create a section like that, I have no problem with it being there. And you might as well put this up for arbitration if you revert it again, because you are going to have to try to revert it more than is allowed. 96.31.177.52 (talk) 05:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
it doesn't belong. It's an irrelevant trivial tid bit. Someone's grabbed a headline on a specific topic and jammed it into what is a general article. No context is provided and just sticks out on its own. Why comment on this narrow focus of belief? Why just this poll? What about all the other aspects of belief and other sources? --Merbabu (talk) 05:25, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A controversy section should not be included. They are discouraged as they are simply a place for irrelevant trivia type factoids - and negative ones. A repository for any old bit of negativity. Trivialities should not be on the article at all. Significant info can find a spot in the article, not in the a negative trivia list. --Merbabu (talk) 05:28, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shi'a Islam?[edit]

"The majority adheres to the Sunni Muslim tradition mainly of the Shafi'i madhhab."

The muslim minorities that don't belong to the Sunni muslim tradition aren't mentioned in the article, except the Ahmaddiyah. Strange because the Shi'a Remembrance of Muharram (called Tabuik) is mourned in Indonesia. There even is an Shia Islam in Indonesia article but it isn't even mentioned, let alone referred to in the Islam in Indonesia article. I put in "Around one million are Shias, who are concentrated around Jakarta" which I copied from the Religion in Indonesia article. 77.251.113.53 (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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What percentage of terrorists in Indonesia are muslims?[edit]

I am wondering if anyone has statistics on the breakdown of terrorsts in Indonesia as to what their religious beliefs are? What percentage of terrorsts in Indonesia are muslims? Indoman (talk) 14:55, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Recent additions[edit]

I have made some thorough changes to User:NouVa's recent additions, because they failed to reflect the actual content of the sources and presented opinions quoted in the sources as facts. And FWIW, it's called WP:BRD (bold, revert, discuss), not BRRD.

Old version
  • Since 2014, a growing secular nationalist ideology in politics has triggered the hot tension between religious, especially Islam, movements and the government institution just as in Suharto's New Order regime that consolidating Pancasila as state single ideology.[1]
New version
  • President Jokowi's call for strict separation of religion and politics is supported by major Muslim organizations such as NU, but is interpreted and condemned by some members of the MUI as a form of secularism, while PKS former chairman Sohibul Iman critcized Jokowi's position as having the potential of increasing tension in Indonesian society.[2]
Old version
  • As the consequences, several Islamic mass organizations such as Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia and FPI were unilaterally dissolved by the Joko Widodo administration for the rejection to Pancasila as ideology[3] and accusations of involvement of its members in crimes,[4] despite of an Islamic cleric and former Ulema Council chairman Ma'ruf Amin as the sitting vice president.
New version
  • In 2017, a "Government Regulation in Lieu of Law" (Peraturan Pemerintah Pengganti Undang-Undang or Perppu) regulating mass organizations was passed by the People's Representative Council and ratified by the president, which led to the ban of the Indonesian branch of Hizbut Tahrir for rejecting and undermining the state ideology Pancasila.[5] FPI was dissovled in 2020, with its members being involved in criminal cases and allegedly linked to terrorist groups.[6][7] Since 2019, MUI chairmnan and former NU leader Ma'ruf Amin has been Vice President of Indonesia.

I have removed the word "despite" in the last sentence, because it implies a contradiction between the fact that Ma'ruf Amin is VP and the goverment crackdown against FPI. To see such a contradiction is an opinion. –Austronesier (talk) 12:06, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added references has came, for current edit. | NouVa (talk) 19:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You stated without evidence that "Since 2014, a growing secular nationalist ideology in politics has triggered frictions to the different views and religious ideologies". Your first source (in the Article) for this assertion, a CNN report from 2017, does not mention that secularism has caused religious friction since 2014. Instead, the CNN report is about the 212 alumni/congress claiming that unjust, blasphemous secularists have excluded Muslims from any role national development. A dubious claim, given that most Indonesians and government officials are Muslims. An assertion is not an encyclopedic fact just because it is made by a conservative group. Your second source has a dead link to an academic paper; however, I located the paper's abstract, which is about coalitions of Islamic parties in Indonesia and does not mention that secularism has caused religious friction since 2014. Your third source is another academic paper, published in 2011 (not 2001) and concerning religious pluralism in Indonesian democracy, and it also does not mention that secularism has caused religious friction since 2014. I am therefore deleting your assertion. The phenomenon of Jokowi's political opponents exploiting conservative Islam in order to attack him does not mean that secularism is triggering friction among religious ideologies. SiberianCat (talk) 05:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Jokowi Accused Of Promoting Secularism". The Jakarta Post. Retrieved 2019-10-09.
  2. ^ "Jokowi Accused Of Promoting Secularism". The Jakarta Post. Retrieved 2019-10-09.
  3. ^ Stefanie, Christie (26 October 2017). "Jokowi Tegaskan UU Ormas untuk Lindungi Pancasila". CNN Indonesia (in Indonesian). Retrieved 27 September 2018.
  4. ^ "Islamic Defender Front's General Secretary proclaimed the creation of the United Islamic Front".
  5. ^ Stefanie, Christie (26 October 2017). "Jokowi Tegaskan UU Ormas untuk Lindungi Pancasila". CNN Indonesia (in Indonesian). Retrieved 27 September 2018.
  6. ^ Persada, Syailendra (2021-01-01). "Kabaharkam Polri: Kalau FPI Punya Amunisi, Bahan Peledak, Terus Kami Diam Saja?". Tempo. Retrieved 2021-01-01.
  7. ^ "Islamic Defender Front's General Secretary proclaimed the creation of the United Islamic Front".

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Secular State?[edit]

The government implicitly has no place for polytheists nor atheists, the first clause of Pancasila is clear and states Monotheism, IT IS NOT SECULAR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:448A:1082:7D8B:F8BE:109D:CBE2:6527 (talk) 11:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia is not explaining every Constitutional Court Ruling within the Country’s government itself. A Secular state within Wikipedia’s definition only means that the Country have no State Religion in the Constitution and they don’t require their head of state to be of certain religions. For instance, the Constitutional Court ruling of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kenya also don’t claim themselves as “Constitutionally Secular states” but they are still regarded as it, because they fit the definition of what a Secular state is according to Wikipedia’s definition, Indonesia is also the same as this. Polytheists and Atheists is also not banned in the Pancasila, Indonesian Hindus are Polytheists too with Atheism being discouraged, not banned. The literal interpretation of Pancasila is not taken from the 5 Sila but its explained by the Butir-butir pengamalan pancasila of the MPR’s decree of 2003, so Atheism and Polytheism are not banned. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 03:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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