Talk:Turbo-folk

This article is so structurally inaccurate that it needs to be deleted and rewritten from scratch

I am not disputing criticism or "cultural value" (whatever one may consider it), I'm disputing facts about what constitutes turbofolk. Anyone in the region considers turbofolk to be only what is mentioned in the article as one part of it: "musical style which is mix of pop music based song with elements of electronic music, Eurodance and hip-hop or other genres". As a genre it got defined in the '90s and didn't exist in the '80s, except some very rare proto-instances. What is mentioned from the '80s is its predecessor, officially called "novokomponovani" - "newly-composed" - music, often referred to as folk. The '90s version was more intense and qualitatively even worse in all aspects, hence the name turbofolk. Mentioning bands and artists like Magazin in this context is borderline offensive. Magazin is bad, cheap, commercial, partly consumed by the same type of people, but it's not turbofolk. (Izitpajn (talk) 10:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC))

Disputed

What part of the article is disputed? If you judge by the other internet sources about turbo-folk, which are almost universaly negative in their assesment, then the article may appear to be in contrast with them. However, you cannot base a fair account of turbo-folk on such sources alone. To be able to judge this topic you have to have some internal knowledge of the culture, and you cannot just dispute neutrality of some article without disputing any claims it makes.

• The article as it is seems to me to be more of an essay than an encyclopedia article, for example "the fact that this phenomenon represents a "fatal" imitation of global trends in popular culture". However, I was wrong to put the {{NPOV}} on without being more specific, and also {{cleanup}} seems to be more appropriate, so I'm now listing it there. — A.M. 18:42, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it has some parts which are in fact compiled from few essays, and they can be improved. However, I have tried to offer a more balanced view of turbo-folk culture, and present it in a more sympathetic and neutral way than it is common in other, usually very hostile and dismissive accounts. Some essay like parts I have included as I think they are in fact very informative to someone who is not familiar with this topic, but they can probably be restated in a more suitable way.

• The article is looking pretty reasonable to me now and I think {{cleanup}} can be removed. However, I've never heard of turbo-folk before reading this (informative) article. So I'll leave any removal to the experts. WpZurp 22:49, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi,

This article is absolute nonsense, and another reason why wikipedia is overrated as a trustworthy source. It has clearly been written by someone who isn't Serbian or familiar with Serbian music and culture, but rather by a typical example of a liberal social justice warrior type who likes to throw everything on one heap. I.e. it's all fascist in his eyes.

This is an actual example of a turbo-folk number: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1esazCdNRHM

notice that it is pop music, kitschy, vapid and centered around half-naked bodies, just like in the West. 1990s music like 2 unlimited comes to mind. Notice also the Arabic tone ladder being used, also common in Turkey, hence the accusations that it is an oriental influence.

But Roki Vulovic, Lepa Mica etc are not examples of turbofolk but rather regular Serbian folk, ofcourse from war-time hence the controversial lyrics. Still, it is regular folk, as regular as Užičko Kolo, which it resembles much more than turbofolk pop music. I'm not even a Serb, yet I can discern between both clearly. The fact that this garbage article is up unedited since 2011 is another prove that this site is as unreliable as it gets.

yours

Eric Vornoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric vornoff (talk • contribs) 14:18, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi,

I live in Serbia, so I can say that IT IS negative as this, even worse. For example, mentioned "200 kmph" hit is folk remix of 2Unlimited "No limit" - which is propaganda to a extreme and bad lifestyle unlike "No limit"

Hi,

i can't say i'm a big fan of this type of music... but i can listen to it... and there are good songs that i can dance to... the "problem" with the article that i have noticed is that "LEPA BRENA" is not mentioned as weel as "DRAGANA MIRKOVIC"... i mean even before "CECA"... there was a great popularity of this kind of music... and TITO "supported" it... it was music for the people... for the big masses... and for me LEPA BRENA is the biggest star ever... maybe today CECA has the same popularity... but "turbo-folk" started before RAMBO AMADEUS and CECA... i think that people that work with wikipedia... should try to find a more accurate history of this type of music... looking at the time before CECA and RAMBO AMADEUS... maybe he gave the name "turbo-folk" but the fact is that the type of music existed even before (Hanka Paldum, Halid Besic...)

I partially disagree with the comment above. yes, you are right that the roots of turbo folk can be probably traced back to early Lepa Brena and Slatki Greh and other 1980s artists (artists?! ARTISTS?!), then also maybe the "hits" such as "Ne dolazi u moj san" etc. Still, the fact is that style wasn't still clearly defined and labeled as TURBO FOLK then, but it belonged to what was generaly labeled as "novokomponovana narodna muzika" ("newly composed folk songs"- thats not 100% authentic folklore and not spome serious artistic ethno music either, it can be described as "music for the simple masses" offtenly played by a combination of modern instruments - keyboards, guitars on one side and accordion, clarinet and other instruments that r more closer to folk sound on the other. This "novokomponovana muzika" label encompasses performers that can be different from eachother, for example the singer Cune on one hand and Vesna Zmijanac on the other is of course not really a same thing). Both this old "novokomponovana" music and the contemporary TF have highly questionable artistic quality, the difference is that the turbofolk had pushed the limits of bad taste further to the extremes. Many would agree that the old-school singers such as Cune, Tozovac, Toma Zdravkovic, Miroslav Ilic and some others use to keep somewhat more dignified "level" of good taste, unlike the decadent cocaine-driven turbofolkers that followed afterwards. So according to this we can say that SOME of the artists from that "novokomponovana muzika" (not all of them) provided basis for the future development of the TF and some of them later joined that freshly invented style. Also, I highjly disagree with the statement that "Tito supported that 'neofolk'". Yes, some singers really did perform for him, but that means nothing, cause the rock band Bijelo Dugme, Zdravko Colic, Djordje Balashevic and many others who were pop-rock artists back then also did. In Yugoslavia's value system, "novokomponovana muzika" stood quite low, it was offten rightly criticised as kitsch, as a music for the rural or smalltown simpleminded uneducated lower parts of the society etc. Contrary to that, the authorities and the media mostly supported pop, rocknroll and similar stuff (lets not forget many of us grew up with pop-rock artists such as lets say Elektricni orgazam, Azra, Haustor, Riblja Corba, Prljavo Kazaliste, then with children shows such as "Fore i fazoni" (incl. music by Labaratorija zvuka) or "Bushava azbuka" (with music by Leb i sol) etc. Undoubtely Brena, Dragana, Jashar Ahmedovski and others were indeed in the the media a lot, but that was considered as cheap brainless entertainment. Rarely such a "neofolk" artist could sign for a major label such as Jugoton or PGP-RTB in the past, unless he/she was really proven as very popular. Instead, completely irelevant labels such as "Diskos -Aleksandrovac" were known for producing such records. I think I explained what was the general status of that neofolk music in the former Tito's Yugoslavia (while Slobodan Milosevic's Yugoslavia after 1992 is something completely different).--Vbb-sk-mk 13:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the information part of this article is completely correct. I'll just add following: Turbo-folk is EXTREMELY popular in Serbia (I know, because I live in that country). About 90% of Serbian people have never heard for Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Jimi Hendrix... There are two music types in serbia: narodna muzika and zabavna muzika ("Country" music and "Fun" music), where country music is an synonym for turbo folk, and fun music synonym for various folk-pop mixes (like Emina Jahovic, for example), and a lot rarer pop-rock examples (Ana Stanic, for example) I totally agree to vbb-sk-mk. For example, if you ask a simple citizen of Belgrade about his favourite reggae band, he'll say: "Reg...what?" So, only rock band in Serbia that is still holding is Riblja Corba. Bora Djordjevic is a legend, and he will stay. And the people who "have higher moral vaules from listening turbo folk" are those who listen 50 Cent, Eminem and other rap musicians (musician is too strong term) I'll quote my professor of physics, Voja, 64 years old, in Serbian (it REALLY cannot be translated) "Taj vas crnac, pijan, drogiran, mutav, ulav, prati ga muzika sto zvuci ko moj unuk kad svira na onaj njegov decji klavir, dere se ko da je poso u hajku na svinje i to je vama muzika." Dusan2, on 21.06.2006, 09:00 CEST

Turbo folk: A type of music or merely a selection?

Now who can tell me about this little confusing aspect. I work at an advertising firm where we have many people from various parts of what was Yugoslavia and as such, I am often exposed to traditional and folk music, old and new from all parts of the country. Apart from that, I'm just an ordinary Welshman! Now then, are you people sure that Turbo Folk really was a type of music, composed to represent certain sides among warring parties? Or did the War Mongers themselves simply choose a handful of tracks every so often to deflag their identity in the conflict? The entire issue is senseless. Serbs and Muslims are said to have faught a bitter cold-blooded ethnic war in the 90's. Ceca is from Serbia, and is seen to be a Serb and she has popularity in Bosnia among Muslims. Šaban Šaulić is also from Serbia but he is a muslim, and it goes without saying that he is popular in both republics. Haris Džinović is a Muslim from Bosnia with considerable popularity in Serbia among the Orthodox Slavic community and Mile Kitić is a declared Serb from Bosnia who again has an audience among both secular groups on both sides of the boundry. So ... ????????

They all performed songs to be included in these 90's Turbo Folk videos, discos, concerts etc. And just incase this isn't confusing enough, what happens when songs are performed by duets, one being of one religious persuasion and the other of the second? Take for instance a 2002 single appearing on the Željko Joksimović album to feature a contribution from Haris Džinović? And even when an it appears that an artist is clearly of one persuasion...can anybody honestly find one album without contributions from a single person from another secular group? Whether it be an instrumentalist, or a backing singer, or the songwriter, or the producer, or even in management? So far we looked at the credits of hundreds of albums from 1992 to the present day and have so far found, Zilch, Nitto, Nul Points, to support the theory that this music can be used to promote nationalism for one party. It would be like suggesting that Hitler recruited Jews in the S.S, or Robert Mugabe has a White English deputy...except of course that he is infallible, and there is no "deputy infallible!", let me know what I am missing dear folks, as soon as you read this. Celtmist 23-10-05

Non-encyclopedic and xenophobic article

All of us who don't like Balkan-Oriental music had a lot of turbo-folk pressure during 1990s, but this article is full of xenophobic shit. It seems that all Balkan-Oriental music starts in 1990s. And, if Ceca is an example of turbo-folk, then I can say that I never heard any nationalist song from her (even, yes, she was married with Arkan). If turbo-folk is treated as some "more undeground" Balkan-Oriental music, then it is not correct to put into turbo-folk (with this definition) a lot of pop singers (including Ceca). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

In short: this article needs a lot of changes. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought I had this article on my watchlist, but I obviously didn't. I agree with millosh and Celtmist that it slipped too much on the dark side. As much as we disguise the genre and mentally connect it with dark ages of Milošević's era, the music itself doesn't deserve it – unlike its promoteurs of the time, and a certain part of its public, this is mostly a genre of naive, often even silly, lyrics and easy notes. The article talks about it as if most of its contents were nazi hymns. I'll see what I can do about it when I find some time. Duja 15:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ceca and all other turbo-folk singers are nothing more than Serbian gangsters who deserve to be killed publicly for the crimes they have committed. Ceca has built her wealth on the bones of countless Serbs, Muslims and Croats while a disgustingly fawning Serbian public have licked the dirt from her shoes in adoration. The insanity has to stop somewhere. Turbo-folk is pornographic in its support for genocide.

I think I somewhat improved the article, at least its part about the origins and evolution from commercial folk into turbo folk.

When I have some free time, I'll expand the section about social aspects of turbo folk because it can still use some work.

As far as regional variants of ex-Yugoslav turbo folk like the part about Greece -- I just don't know. Whoever wrote it, he/she made some strong general statements that certainly sound weaselly but since I'm definitely no authority on Greek music I'm not going to make any changes. User:Zvonko 21 January 2006

Great work. Please, fix the POV inside of "Social and pop-culture ...". I removed POV template and added POV-section template. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I made some changes and additions to "Social and pop-culture....." section. See how you like it now. Another user added a bunch of stuff in the same section as well but since it didn't really belong there, I took the liberty of moving it to a new "Turbo folk today" or "Turbo folk, a decade later" section, which I always had the intention of putting up anyway. Unfortunately, the addition is semiliterate and it will require major corrections, perhaps even a re-write from scratch but I just don't feel like it right now.--Zvonko 15:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I also re-did the "turbo-folk today" section. I think pretty much entire article seems decent now (except for Greek stuff).--Zvonko 07:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Article is not POV anymore so I removed POV-section tag. You did a great work. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

And just one note. As an outsider, I see a clear difference between Palma (and Radio Pink) based and TV Pink based turbo-folk. The first one is more folk, the second one is more pop. The similar difference is between turbo-folk in early 90s and turbo-folk in late 90s. I think it should be described inside of the article. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

'A Few' Questions and Comments

The article is informative. A few comments and questions from me, though, intended as constructive criticism. The comments have to do with style and clarity, and the questions have to do with accuracy and factuality and referencing sources. All statements are intended in good faith. I'm not especially partisan in these matters, but I am curious as to reasons for what some might perceive as evasions and omissions; I just want the article to do what the author wants it to do (inform the reader about turbo-folk in a neutral way, but with facts), and I'm sincerely interested in answers to my queries.

1. Clarity. When I was reading this article, I was struck by the use of certain words and phrases, e.g. "scandalous", "merely", "risqué", "a lot more intrinsic." Doesn't anyone think this kind of phrasing should be cleaned up for an encyclopedic entry? The meanings of those words, while probably clear to the author, may not be clear to the reader. "Risqué" to whom? And why? If the writer means that certain behaviors scandalize segments of the Balkan music-buying audience, perhaps a specific example of scandal is in order, along with some mention of why the behavior or performance was considered scandalous. Does being "short-skirted" equate with "letting go of all inhibitions" in this cultural context? Was the "letting go of all inhibitions" a spontaneous thing, or was it a marketing ploy? If it was the latter, the marketing capitalized on what pre-existing social and cultural conditions? Or was marketing absent from the phenomenon, and was turbo-folk exclusively produced by the people, for the people, with no packaging or commercialization? Did the market merely respond to youth culture, or did it capitalize on it? Did this "dilute" the genre in any way? In short, what cultural climate gave rise to the interest in speed, sports cars and leggy girls, and did the culture's response to the music change? The article implies that the music changed in some regards, while some "essence" of turbo remained. What is the essence of the thing? And turbo-folk is "[a] lot more intrinsic" to what, and "harder to crack" than what? The implication seems to be that it's tougher to crack than its critics thought, but were the critics attempting to "crack" it- i.e., to understand it- or to criticize the way they perceived it as functioning?

"If anything, it [the TV scaling-down] provided the opportunity for the genre to reconnect with its rural core, resulting in the emergence of new batch of up-and-comers led by Seka Aleksić, Stoja, Ćana, etc. whose curvaceously earthy looks won them many fans in an era of over-produced, Botox® & silicone induced performers." Can we prove that consumers purchase the new wave of turbo-folk product because they're dissatisfied with other types of pop music, i.e., is there a study or marketing research to confirm this? The statement, as written, posits that turbo-folk performers are popular because the pop playing field is cluttered with artificiality. The article implies without proving that fans respond to turbo-folk because most pop music is "over-produced." What sort of production work is done that ensures turbo-folk's "authenticity"? And is the image associated with the music at all constructed? Are we to infer that Botox® and silicone Italic textinduceItalic text performers, or should that bit be worded more clearly?

"Younger singers (under 35 years of age), especially women, usually play the sex card with provocative, revealing wardrobe on-stage and scandalous, jet-setting, bed-hopping lifestyles off it." Using the word "usually" is problematic, as the writer is making a distinction, drawing a line between two types of singers; the only difference between the two types seems to be that one group is young and "misbehaves" while the other group is older and avoids such antics. To say that one group "usually" does something, and the other group "concentrate[s] merely on vocal abilities and usually stay[s] clear of risqué lyrics..." Well, those adverbs seem problematic, in context. "Usually" implies that there are exceptions to the rule. If there are exceptions- young singers who don't "play the sex card" and older singers who dress provocatively- the exceptions should be noted, or examples should be given. Otherwise, I'd suggest removing those uses of "usually."

2. Where are the men, and is the good woman/bad girl dichotomy a part of the turbo "image"? I'd suggest that the article seems slanted towards a discussion of female entertainers, and that the language in this regard is both POV and, in some instances, redundant. "Younger singers (under 35 years of age), especially women, usually play the sex card with provocative, revealing wardrobe on-stage and scandalous, jet-setting, bed-hopping lifestyles off it." "Short-skirted, leggy girls like Ceca Veličković, Mira Škorić, Dragana Mirković, Snežana Babić Sneki, and so on, all of whom were already present on the scene though with slightly more demure attitudes, quickly embraced the new style, letting go of all inhibitions and thus immediately becoming some of turbo-folk's biggest stars." "The mix of scantily clad young females, lascivious stage movements and innocuous, accessible lyrics proved to be the winning combination that launched many turbo-folk careers and ensured high viewership rates for plenty of television stations in Serbia." The article doesn't go into this kind of detail with male performers, nor does it use the same kind of language. (Are there "barechested, bulging-biceped" male singers? The author implies existence of male singers, but never mentions such singers in depth.) And the emphasis on the sex kitten- demure woman becomes redundant, after the first few times. "I got it," thinks the reader. "Turbo-folk singers, if young and female, present themselves as sexually uninhibited, and they're scantily-clad."

I notice that male performers are mentioned in a Central Europe Review piece on turbo-folk. Are they relevant to the discussion?

I don’t feel they are. There were plenty of males on the ‘scene’ during the 1990s but their popularity was significantly smaller than that of women like Ceca, Mira Skoric, Dara Bubamara or, towards the late 1990s Jelena Karleusa. Men like Dzej, Mitar Miric, Sinan Sakic, as well as dozens of various one-hit-wonders like Rade Jorovic, Milos Bojanic, were definitely well known, but their schtick was much more in continuity with the 70s and 80s commercial folk, and as such I feel does not merit more of a mention in turbo-folk context than they were already given. In other words, while they did somewhat take their schtick up a notch with lyrical innuendo in certain songs, their visuals didn’t change significantly from the ones dominant in 70s and 80s while on the women side they most definitely did, and drastically so. There were no bare-chested, chest-thumping males running around on stage all of a sudden or anything along those lines that would be symmetrical to half naked women.Zvonko 09:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

And regarding the older female singers: If a singer concentrates "merely" on vocal abilities, how is this due to necessity? Does the necessity come from marketing concerns, social concerns, an aging fanbase, or a combination of the above? Does this imply that younger singers have similar considerations in what they emphasize? And how did we arrive at thirty-five for the age? To put this another way: In the case of older female singers, the article's writer states that when a woman reaches a certain age, she tends to concentrate on vocal ability rather than the upkeep of a sexy appearance, but I'm not sure that the necessity for this kind of emphasis is stated, the "age-point" seems arbitrary, and no source is cited, so the reader is left wondering if the necessity is due to age, commercial concerns, or what have you. The writer might be implying an answer, but I wonder: If the comment's meaning is implied by the author, if it's not stated to the reader, and if no source is cited, does the passage meet Wikipedia standards?

3. "The subversive potential of turbo-folk is to be found in the fact that this phenomenon represents an imitation of global trends in popular culture but is, both by its critics and by its fans from abroad (including cyberpunk author Bruce Sterling), treated as in opposition to those trends." Sterling is a fan of turbo-folk; there's no doubt about that. But his point, as articulated in his essay "Freedom's Dark Side" and in other writings, seems to be that certain features of the global marketplace- especially what he terms "broken-open source software, as in pirated CDs sold off blankets at flea markets"- make it easier for folks to purchase the music without having to put money into the artists' pocket. Basically, "software"- and in his argument, this includes music, whatever its origins and purpose- spreads, only to be re-routed via people making illegal copies. He doesn't seem to mind this with respect to turbo-folk. In fact, he revels in the fact that he can acquire Ceca's music without her getting a cent. And while he's interested in her music, I'd hardly say he's a fan without reservations; in "Freedom's Dark Side," he called Ceca's business associates "her fellow mobsters," and on his blog, he referred to her as "the most evil pop star in the world." http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/view.html?pg=4 http://blog.wired.com/sterling

And is it a "fact" that turbo "represents an imitation of global trends"? Might "appropriation" be a more apt term for that aspect of it? Can sources be cited, or evidence provided, to establish that this is a fact, or at least a majority opinion/consensus?

The author of this piece states, "Yes, it has some parts which are in fact compiled from few essays, and they can be improved. However, I have tried to offer a more balanced view of turbo-folk culture, and present it in a more sympathetic and neutral way than it is common in other, usually very hostile and dismissive accounts. Some essay like parts I have included as I think they are in fact very informative to someone who is not familiar with this topic, but they can probably be restated in a more suitable way."

Where are these essays? Are they available online, are they in print, or are they original research? And should a "balanced" and "neutral" encyclopedia article exclude sources which, while "very hostile and dismissive," are from reputable sources, i.e. television documentaries, television broadcasts, newspaper articles, etc?

Perhaps the answer to that last question is "Yes and No. Yes, the accounts should be excluded from the article if the accounts are hostile and dismissive and baseless, i.e. if the accounts are baseless attacks. No, they shouldn't be excluded if the accounts present relevent factual information which a 'more sympathetic account' excludes and which makes the author unhappy." In other words, maybe the article should cite sources, and, if one source- a sympathetic one- contradicts a source that makes unpleasant claims about turbo-folk's legacy, the two should be contrasted, with both sources cited, but with emphasis placed upon a reputable source that relies on verifiable fact and documentation. And maybe one has to go with the source that one doesn't like, if it seems more acceptible in terms of Wikipedia policy.

Which is why I'd like to see the author's sources. The essays. I'd like to see the facts and arguments, and to have the sources quoted or "incorporated" in the article.

4. Refutation/response to "critics". "[T]urbo-folk was equally popular amongst all the South Slavic nations during the brutal wars of the 1990s, reflecting perhaps the common cultural sentiments of the warring sides. When a Muslim market seller in Sarajevo was asked why in the midst of a Serb shelling of the city he illegally sold CDs by turbo-folk superstar Ceca, a wife of the notorious Serbian warlord Arkan, he offered a laconic retort: 'Art knows no borders!'" Again, citation would benefit both the writer who makes these claims and the reader who encounters them. Sterling's piece seems to imply that "illegally sold CDs" in the Balkans are made by or for people who like her music, but don't want their money to go to her. This could offer a rather cynical context to the seller's "Art knows no borders" comment.(The piece is in WIRED's September 2003 issue, and is available for reading online. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/view.html?pg=4)

I think Sterling is riffing and trying to be cute. You have to take into account that in his WIRED writings he's not a documentarian, but essentially an opinionated columnist who aims to arouse and entertain. His subsequent implications and comments that you re-stated are his POV and that's fine, and as such of not much relevance to an encyclopedia entry. Also some of his previous hard info is way off – the guy busted for PM Djindjic’s murder wasn’t “Ceca’s new boyfriend”…... But, back to the main point. Both Sterling and you are giving way too much credit to the market seller dude in Sarajevo. I very much doubt he was into exacting low-level poetic justice under the circumstances when his belly and his wallet are both empty, and his very survival is at stake (even if he survives the bombs, he still has to make some money to eat and live). The guy was simply trying to make a living. Maybe somewhere deep, deep down, the thought of "hey look at me I'm ripping off a Serbian superstar while bombs are falling on my head" even crossed his mind for a nanosecond, but that certainly wasn't his motivation for selling bootlegs in the first place. Finding a source of income and eating, on the other hand, definitely was. He saw all around him that Ceca is popular amongst his fellow Muslims, but since she’s officially a pariah because of connection to Arkan her CDs weren’t being sold legally. In essence he’s no different than your average cigarette or petrol seller on the streets of the Balkans during 1990s. He saw a buyer’s market and decided to exploit it. He is smart enough to realize that some of his fellow Muslims will not take kindly to the fact he’s making a buck on spreading ‘Serb music’ among them so he’s trying to appease them by pulling the “Art knows no borders” thing, but he also knows many more of his fellow Muslims will be more than happy to buy a CD. That is what you would call risk-assessment. Zvonko 11:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there any literature/study that looks at, say, Bosnian feelings towards Ceca as a person versus Bosnian feelings about her music? Are there newspaper accounts?

Not that I know of. I guess you can ask me. :) I'm a guy from Bosnia, though with 'Bosnian feelings towards Ceca' you're referring to, you probably meant 'Bosnian Muslim feelings towards Ceca' Zvonko 11:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

And does someone on Side A listening to music by a performer from Side B in a conflict invalidate concerns that the music or the performer has been used for nationalistic or xenophobic ends on the part of Side B's leadership?

Well it’s not just one person on Side A, and it’s not just one performer on side B. Ceca is listed as the most significant & representative of the bunch. As someone who spent 15 years of his life in Bosnia, and who goes there every year, I can confirm that a wide variety Serbian turbo-folk stars are extremely popular in Muslim part of Bosnia.

And addendums to original ideological claims are not trying to refute them as you put it, but simply to present facts and opinions on both sides of the issue. Zvonko 11:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Similar problems arise when the article deals with right-wing responses to turbo-folk. We're told what the Serbian conservative nationalists' objections were, but the article then states that urban youth responded favorably to the music, and that "a new stratum of young men, favouring a healthy, sporty lifestyle and macho values, embraced turbo folk in a major way." Given the structure of the sections involving criticism, I'm assuming this is meant as an alternate reading of turbo-folk, or as a rebuttal to the nationalists' criticism. I'm not sure it works. It sounds like special pleading. So, it was criticized for being a bad influence, but young people embraced it. And...?(Also, I'm assuming for the sake of conversation that there's such a thing as a liberal nationalist, although I suspect that the definition of such a thing would be relative to the reader. Perhaps the wording should be worked on a bit.)

You might have a point in saying that this requires further explaining. It may not be clear to someone outside the Balkans that the '70s and '80s commercial folk mostly had a rural and semi-urban audience while city kids mostly listened to rock, punk, new wave, etc. Even commercial folk often (turbo-folk's predecessor) was often criticised for not sounding Slavic and European, but unlike commercial folk, turbo-folk did have a following in urban youth. It again, does not really refute the earlier statement but merely points out some facts relating to the issue at hand. Zvonko 11:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

And what does it mean when we read the following in a newspaper article: "'Turbo folk,' said Petar Popovic, director of the country's state-run record company in 1994, 'is the sound of the war and everything that the war brought to this country. It represents everything that has happened to this country over the past few years.'" Does the journalist misrepresent Popovic's position in the music industry, or is this statement- quoted in a major newspaper, one that constitutes a "respectable source" under Wikipedia guidelines- dubious or inaccurate? If it is, I'd certainly welcome the news, as I would welcome someone disproving or at least calling into question the necklace story in the piece, which one also finds at the BBC website. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1115505,00.html

Regarding the Talk here:

Perhaps the political questions arise from the following possibility: Can popular music, regardless of who works on its production or what the views of the artist are, be used to serve a political or other agenda that subverts or co-opts the music's intended purpose? My initial response is, Yes. I'm thinking of Reagan's people wanting to use Springsteen's "Born in the U.S.A." in a political campaign, or the way certain African-American performers, especially those who worked in jazz or the blues, are considered "classic" and embraced by conservative elements in the U.S. And I'm thinking of any number of songs that become soundtracks to television commercials.

But these are milder examples; what's at stake in such instances is far less upsetting than what critics accuse turbo-folk of playing a part in.

Given that the article discusses the "image" of turbo-folk at some length, and that Duja mentions in the Talk section, "As much as we disguise the genre and mentally connect it with dark ages of Milošević's era, the music itself doesn't deserve it – unlike its promoteurs of the time, and a certain part of its public, this is mostly a genre of naive, often even silly, lyrics and easy notes"- given these two elements, and the way discussions of the music seem inextricably tied to a discussion of the performers' images, I wonder if a semiotic or even deconstructive reading of the genre might not reveal a tension between what is sung and the representation or "packaging" of the music. Such an analysis might well go toward explaining both the left's characterization of turbo-folk as "nationalistic kitsch" and the right's reading of the genre as indicative of the "Teheranization" of Serbia. I wonder, does such a representation exist?

It might also put Popovic's statement in context.

And, with due respect to Celtmist, I would argue that any media-savvy politician- including those who are violently inclined- would in fact use pop icons to sway public opinion. Think of the controversies over Bono having his picture taken with certain world leaders, and the "cultural legitimacy" the photo-ops provided for the pols in terms of P.R. After all, why else would an aging politician take time out from a working day to meet with a pop star? A short answer might well be, to be seen with a famous person and to appear "hip" to the times, i.e. not to look like some stereotypical dictator, but to appear as a progressive or democratic or populist sort.

In short, I think it was a bit much to use the Hitler comparison. Ideology manifests itself in ways more subtle than it did when Leni Riefenstahl was earning a paycheck. And sometimes, willingly or not, an entertainer can become part of a system of thought, whether the lyrics are hateful or banal.

Is the following link "too negative" or is it factually inaccurate? As an "outsider" to Serbian culture- pop and otherwise- I'd like to know. (I'm referring to its quotations from and analysis of the songs and the imagery.) http://www.tol.cz/look/CER/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=14&NrIssue=48&NrSection=2&NrArticle=9442

But my primary purpose in this post was to ask about matters of fact and referencing sources and style... Sorry if I carried on at length. AlphonseVanW.=AlphonseVanW.

My first general impression after reading your rather long comment is that you’re reading waaaaaaaay too much into turbo-folk as a whole, and especially into different rather inconsequential details that surround it. Even without you stating so, it’s fairly obvious that most of your ‘turbo-folk knowledge’ comes from online essays and articles (I know, where else would it come from (!?) but I’m just saying), which IMHO mostly suffer from trying to make their subject more significant, snappier and yes sexier (though not in the carnal way) than it really is.

That being said, you did raise some interesting points and I will try to comment on them as my schedule permits me. I’ll be doing so within the body of your humongous post for overall clarity reasons. Zvonko 10:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree-- or at least I think that something can mean whatever you want it to sometimes. In a way it's just a simple form of pop music, we can't forget that. Dan Carkner 21:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

viki

[[Media: ]] you should not waste serever space an turbo folk.its a junk music

Npov, again?

Estavisti, what do you now dispute in the article? You shouldn't just put the tag and go away—t least, state your objections on the talk page. It was rewritten pretty much from scratch, mostly by User:Zvonko, few months ago because the old version portrayed it more or less as a fascistic movement. If you don't pinpoint the specific issues, I'm gonna remove it in few days. Duja 02:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Need for citation and cleanup

I came by hoping to do some style edits, as the Ceca article did, but the problems with this article go beyond spelling and grammar, sadly. The article is almost completely unsourced. I do not dispute any particular fact or claim within the article; however, it is essential that we cite our sources and make sure that we abide by a Neutral point of view. Also, I know that many people have strong opinions about their area of interests; I, for one, have strong opinions about Farscape or Dungeons and Dragons. However, it's important that we not do original research; it's important that each of the claims we make be verified by an external source. For this reason, I put the "this article does not cite its sources" tag at the top of the article.Captainktainer 05:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the tag you put up is inaccurate. According to what you described to be your beef with the current version of the article, the following tag would be more appropriate: {{unreferenced}}

Secondly, it would be a lot more helpful if you cited specific objections rather than such a general one.

Now, as for the ‘meat’ of your post - obviously, you DO have a point on the lack of sources cited. However, this is one of those cases where most of the stuff available on the issue somewhat suffers from Anglo focus which is described as contrary to neutral point of view in the official English Wikipedia policy. Also bare in mind the Making necessary assumptions guideline. But again, on the whole you're right and relevant citations would definitely be welcome.Zvonko 09:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I’ve provided some sources a while ago, and I’ve just provided some more. I feel it’s now OK to remove the tag. If anyone still takes issue with the article as a whole or any of its sections, he/she should specifically state the contentious parts. Blind, blanket tagging without subsequent participation in the discussion is not particularly helpful.Zvonko 02:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Turbofolk and drugs

QUOTE: Still, turbo-folk had a considerable following among the urban youth, with no parallels in its Balkan commercial folk predecessor. Dizelaši (as they were called, due to their fondness for Diesel clothing), a new stratum of young men favouring a healthy, sporty lifestyle and macho values, widely embraced turbo folk and were for years its core audience.

Although its true that the followers of this kitschy trend called turbofolk want to present it as "healthy national(istic?) music and lifestyle" contrary to the urban subcultures of rockers, punks, clubbers etc. who are perceived as "bunch of junkies and homosexuals.." and their music as "foreign", the turbofolk scene and its following is not at all drug-free. Oncontrary, many TF artists (artists?!) are known for their use of narcotics (a good example would be Aca Lukas who publicly admits his cocaine addiction and has been arrested for drugs and firearms possesion in 2003). Also I would reffer here to the well known movie RANE(awarded at the Stockholm and Thessaloniki Film Festivals) which among other things also shows the drug abuse in that gangster world of the Belgrade "diesel boys". Thats why I think that something about the drugs in the Turbofolk should be added in the article, beacuse the stories about "drug-free turbofolk" are nothing but myths --Vbb-sk-mk 13:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Turbo Folk/ Planet Folk: the difference?

What is the difference between Turbo Folk and Planet Folk(ery)? I'm from the Netherlands, so it is hard for me to know the difference (since we don't really have these kinds of music). The article of Elena Risteska mentioned something about Planet Folk, but that's all I can find on this topic on Wikipedia. --84.104.123.100 21:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Haha, nice question. I could answer it since I am from Macedonia and Elena was representing my country on Eurovision. In her text she was singing about a guy that stopped listening to rap and pop-rock and started listening to folkers from Planet TV which is a famous Turbo folk (or pop-folk as it is called in Bulgaria) TV station. Her song is actually a criticism towards turbo-folk, although her music and style (almost pornographic) don't stand much higher on my scale of values. Still that text is a criticism towards turbo-folk. There are actually no Turbo-folk authors in Macedonia, but Serbian, Bosnian and Bulgarian TF are very popular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.12.236 (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Classification of criticism

Classification shouldn't be according to "left", "right", "blue", "yellow" or any kind of "wings", but it should be according to the issues. And there are no some fictional groups which things something, but persons with their positions and their quotes or so. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ceca on Pink1.jpg

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Some valuable references

I just added two books under references, and btw i highly recommended them to anyone who would like to understand more about the subject. Quote from Matthew Collin: This is Serbia calling, p.78-84:

"War had its heroes and its villains; its look and its smell. And it had its own sound, too: a local electro-ethnic hybrid called turbo-folk. Turbo-folk was indigenous Balkan disco, a gloopy melange of chirpy techno-pop and traditional folk melodies, a naive recreation of an imagined West gleaned from MTV, mixed with resynthesised relics of village life. It was optimistic and patriotic, modern yet nostalgic, tugging at the heartstrings of rural folk who left Serbia's farmlands in search of big-city prosperity, poor wistful refugees arriving in Belgrade on the run from Bosnia, and soldiers cought up in the conflicting emotions of wartime. (...)

State television promoted it because it banished thoughts of bad things, of hyperinflation. (...) It created an imaginary world, suggested American writer Eric D. Gordy, full of 'images of glamour, luxury and the "good life" – a world populated by young women in miniskirts who drive luxury automobiles, live in fantastically spacious homes, and spend their time in fashionable hotel bars'. Or as one Belgrader puts it, less politely: 'Turbo-folk said work less, earn more, cheat and steal, fuck a lot, drive a stolen Golf GTi, enjoy life!' (...)

For Belgrade's young urbanities, driven further and further into an underground, bunker mentality, turbo-folk meant war, isolation and the shrill hysteria of nationalism. It was the deathly rattle of Milošević, of the paramilitaries and the profiteers – the new ruling class who had ruined their city, their culture and their lives.. (...)

It even manifested itself in architecture; in the high kitsch abodes of war profiteers and gangsters like Arkan, their tacky combinations of expensive stone and mirrored glass shameless signifiers of ill-gotten gains. Borka Pavičević calls them 'turbo houses' – built with bloody cash and designed to flaunt it. (...)

Despite the fact that the former Yugoslav republics were at war with each other, turbo-folk succeeded in crossing the frontlines and became popular all over the region. Many Serbian hits were actually recorded in Croatia, ostensibly an enemy state, including the greatest ot them all, It's Almost Midnight – its title if nothing else a succinct summation of the apocalyptic feeling of the times."

Another good essay is Eric Gordy's The Culture of Power in Serbia, of which some extracts can be found at http://books.google.com/books?id=WqoZsrmYZQIC

I hope this will help to base the article on reliable sources. --Irina666 (talk) 00:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hungry rock musicians as originators of turbo-folk

It should be noted that many rock and pop musicians also took a part in creating turbo-folk, mostly Futa, Milic Vukasinovic, Oliver Mandic and Bora Djordjevic. Marina Tucakovic, as main turbo-folk author, was notably songwriter for many pop, rock and disco acts. Some bands, as Osvajaci or Prslook Band become turbo-folk with aim to earn some money. "Turbo folk emerged when rock stars begin to work with folk stars" is said buy some folk singer, I cannot remember. Also, TF gained popularity trough Vanja Bulic's ZAM on 3K(followed by EuroPink on Pink TV), which is still model for Grand Show, Grand Parada, Bravo Show, etc... Early TF video's was produced by Stanko Crnobrnja, with rotating pictures and neon frames.

It should be noted that Lepa Brena and Slatki Greh combined disco of ABBA with folk. Also, it should be noted turbo-folk origins in "Rokeri s Moravu" music (although they, however, haven't been rock group). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.222.163.250 (talk) 09:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

File:Grafit protiv turbofolka,Imotski01848.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Origins of Turbo-Folk

I am surprised that this article has such a great dispute. I agree there are some things that should be cleaned up, but I do not agree that the article is bias or false in any way.

However, I must add that there is one thing missing in the article: a reference to what may be taken as the basic "recipe" for turbo-folk. Lepa Brena made a song in 80's called Disko Urnebes (Disco Chaos), and here is the lyric of the song (including the best translation I could provide; there was no English translation I could find on the web):

Prodaj Cale kucu staru kupi novu dugmetaru ja cu suknju od najlona da dodjem do mikrofona

Lova, lova, lova padace sa krova

Ref. Suknjom sitno okicama kres pravicemo, pravicemo disko urnebes

Pusti ralo i motiku narod voli erotiku obuci me minimalno da se vidim maksimalno

Lova, lova, lova padace sa krova

Ref.

Naci cemo muzikante i ostale folirante sad smo pravi veseljaci pevaci smo narodnjaci

Lova, lova, lova padace sa krova

Ref.

Translation:

Sell, Cale, the old house Buy new button accordion I will buy the skirt from nylon To get to the microphone

Money, money, money Will be falling from the rooftops

Ref. Slowly move the skirt, wink with the eyes, we will make, we will make disco chaos

Let go plow and hoe people likes erotics dress me with as less as you can (referred to cloths) to show me as much as you can (referred to skin)

Money, money, money Will be falling from the rooftops

Ref.

We will find musicians and other phonies now we are cheerful people singers of populist music

Money, money, money Will be falling from the rooftops

Ref.

(Lyrics taken from site: http://kdletras.com/lepa-brena/disko-urnebes)

The latter turbo-folk music in 90's will be reflecting exactly what was described in this song, and what was already mentioned in the article. Even though there are singers who stepped away from this original idea, I must say that most of the women singers had the similar start in their careers of turbo-folk in Serbia:

1. They came from small towns or villages in Serbia to Belgrade (references: Dragana Mirkovic born in village near Požarevac; [[1]] born in village of Žitorađa; [Babić Sneki] born in small town of Pančevo - they have let go the plow and the hoe 2. They had long legs and short skirts and were coquette on the stage and in videos (video references: Dragana Mirkovic; Ceca; Sneki; Jelena Karleusa - nylon skirts, minimally dressed and showing a lot of skin. 3. They had very little to none musical education (look at all previous references plus [Karleuša]; there is no mentioning of their musical or other education. Furthermore, for Jelena Karleusa is clear that she never completed high school 4. They were not writing music nor text of the songs they were singing. In fact, this information is very difficult to find for some reason, but it is also not known (there is no evidence to confirm) that any of the turbo-folk singers made any of their musics or songs 5. They had no named bands that were playing with them. (In case of Lepa Brena, she had a band called Slatki Greh (Sweet Sin), but other mail and female singers of turbo-folk had only background music, but no named bands that were playing with them) 6. Most of them have big companies, like football clubs, production or edition companies, as well as houses in Serbia and in foreign countries.

All of that concludes that they were elaborate puppets for the people to focus more on publicly allowed erotics and less on political and other problems in the 80's and 90's.

Reading the text http://www.6yka.com/novost/35506/sta-znaci-turbo-folk (I am sorry it is not in English) is quite clear that:

I am putting part of the text here, with my own translation:

Muško-ženski stil u turbo-folku od muškarca je očekivao da bude opasan, robustan, muževan. Nešto kasnije uveden je još jedan, prateći model muškarca, namenjen najmlađoj populaciji: površnog, feminiziranog, i obučenog po poslednjoj modi. Dominantni tip muškarca u turbo-folku jeste mačo , koji vozi skupa i brza kola, nosi mobilni telefon a po potrebi može da potegne i pištolj. Nosi crna i siva odela, crnu kožu ili najskuplju sportsku garderobu (inostranih robnih marki). Njegovu osnovnu preokupaciju i sistem vrednosti čini novac , na bilo koji način stečen. On je kriminalac ili, češće, novi srpski biznismen . Žene služe tome da ih on ,,troši”, ili, s druge strane, da se fascinira do obožavanja njihovim ,,vamp” izgledom. U ženi koju izabere za svoju saputnicu – najviše su na ceni folk-pevačice – obožava sopstvenu snagu i moć. Mladi muškarac prinuđen je da prihvati ovakav nasilnički obrazac muške seksualnosti da bi u takvom svetu potvrdio svoju muškost.

Žena u turbo-folku je poželjni objekat i roba . Ona svojim izgledom treba da privuče muškarca, da ga uzbudi. Njena privlačnost treba da potvrdi status muškarca u čijem je društvu, ili, pak, da predstavlja potencijalni statusni simbol u muškarčevom odsustvu, uz pomoć večernjih haljina, uske crne garderobe, odeće poznatih modnih kreatora (svetskih robnih marki), skupe obuće i nakita, ili pak svetlucavih mini kič-kompleta. Ovakvom izgledu se na samom kraju milenijuma (1999-2000) pridodaju silikonske grudi i efekti plastičnih hirurških intervencija na licu, kao modni hit, u cilju postizanja što ,,savršenijeg” izgleda. Izuzetno popularne manekenke sa pevačicama dele medijski prostor i stil. Usled siromaštva i raspada moralnih normi dolazi do zabrinjavajuće prostituizacije žene u medijima. Ova moda konstantno se plasira na televiziji, i u nedostatku boljeg identifikacionog obrasca u ovim kriznim vremenima sledi je zapanjujuće veliki broj, pre svega mladih, žena, kojima televizija nudi iluziju brzo dostižne slave i statusa.

Translation:

The male-female style of turbo folk: from males was expected that they have dangerous, tough, and very male look and style. Later on, additional and accompanying style was added, directed to younger audience: superficial, effeminate and dressed by the latest fashion designs. The dominant type of males in turbo folk is the macho type, who drives expensive and fast cars, carries mobile phones and if needed, he can also draw a gun. He is wearing black or gray clothes, or black leather, or the most expensive sport clothes (of foreign sport brands). His main focus and value system is money, regardless on how it is obtained. He is a criminal, or more frequent, new Serbian businessman. Women are used to be "spent", or for him to be fascinated up to worshiping of their "vamp" look. In the woman he chooses for his life companion (the most frequent choice is a turbo-folk singer) he adores his own strength and power. A young male is forced to adopt this bully pattern of male sexuality if he wants to confirm his male-hood in such world.

Woman in turbo-folk is a desired object and good. She should attract and excite man with her looks. Her attractiveness must confirm the status of the man she is accompanying, or to represent a potential status symbol in man company, with help of her evening gowns, tight black clothes, clothes of world famous fashion designers, expensive clothes and jewelry, or through flashy and reflective mini kitsch sets. By the end of 90's, to this look is also added a set of silicon breasts and effects of various plastic face surgeries, as a "fashion detail" and with goal to obtain the perfect look. Very popular models and singers are sharing the same media space and style. There is a high level of prostitution of women in media due to increasing poverty and degradation of moral norms. This new fashion is constantly presented on TV and due to lack of other role models, there is an amazingly huge number of followers in these difficult times, first of all young women, to whom television offers the illusion of how quickly obtainable are glory and social status.

Due to all this, and going back to Lepa Brena's song, the brain is not the required component of the turbo-folk singers and performers. They are only a poor people from countrysides who accepted to deform their look for a lot of money and to be presented to suffering nation as role models and idealism to be followed, through erotic looks, fake attitudes, mixing folkloric sounds with new rhythms and instruments from pop and rock, thus creating a perfect cross-generation link and having mass popularity. During all that time, political, economical, educational, cultural and other problems, including the war, were going on almost unnoticed by the general population, up until 2000.

I know that my own presentation is not very good and is missing a lot of sources and information, but I would like to see this reviewed and possibly included in the main text, as it will explain some of the disputed content.

200.30.249.52 (talk) 03:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)G.M.

Turbo-folk In Albania

Ąnαșταη There is a similar style in Albania but it is not called "Turbo-folk. This part is in the lede. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Turbo-folk compilation albums

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