Talk:Hutsuls

Hutsuls: Ukrainians or Rusyns?

Yeti wrote in "Edit summary": As far as I know vast majority of Huculs consider themselves Ukrainians. The same about Boikos and eastern Lemkos. when he changed my attribution from Rusyns to Ukrainians. I took the idea from the Rusyns article. I have no idea who is right, but this must be consistent in wikipedia.

Mikkalai 16:03, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think, it's fine. Obviously, I am not a Hucul, but I know a few and they definitelly do not consider Huculs separate from Ukrainians. Also, as far as I know Ukrainian nationalism was well rooted amongst them already at the begining of 20th century. I think that it is the problem of Huculs. Mayby amongst users of Wikipedia is someone from Hutsulshchyna?Yeti 19:17, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

P.S. And if inhabitans of Zakarpattya and Carpathian mountains consider themselve Rusyns, who was fighting in Polish-Ukrainian war in 1918-19? Who created so called Komancza Republic in 1918? Who created Republic of Carpathian Ukraine in 1939? Who was fighting in formations of UPA (1944-47) that were strongest in Boykowstchyna ans Hutsulstchyna? Pro-russian Rusyn movement was strong only in some limited areas, for example western Lemkiwstchyna (but eastern was fiercly pro-Ukrainian) or Presov area in Slovakia.Yeti 08:50, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hutsuls are most definitely Ukrainians. Lemkos are the only Carpathian Ukrainian group experiencing splits amongst themselves, though the Lemko "Rusyns" (a small minority)seem to make too much of their cultural differences and choose not to recognize the similarities they have with a very rich Ukrainian culture of which they are part of. The Polish government only more recently has been encouraging "Lemko" nationalistic sentiment to counter any Ukrainian geopolitical claim on Lemkivshchyna. Stefan

I'm from Hutsulchyyna and I do consider my self as a rusyn. In fact Hutsuls are one of the tribes (as Boiky, Lemky, Verchovinci or Doliniany) that compose the rusyn nation. We are different from Ukrainians. I must also say that rusyn aren't pro-russian at all. Historically there were three main rusyn parties: the pro-russians, the pro-ukrainians and the pro-ruthens. Nowdays, only the pro-ruthens do subsist in Ukraine. The Carpathian Ukraine in 1939 was created by A. Voloshyn than was a pro-ukrainian and that wanted rusyns to become ukrainians. The formations of UPA were made from Galician ukrainians, assimilated rusyns and some rusyns that wanted freedom for their motherland. So they joined the UPA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.134.252 (talk • contribs)

Dear Hutsul, thanks for your valuable comment. Please register and come back with your sugegstions. --Irpen 20:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm a hutsul and I consider myself by no means Ukrainian. I AM NOT UKRAINIAN! If the hutsul population from Ukraine consider themselves Ukrainian, that's their choice. I've also added some corrections to the article before signing in. I think the best is just to use "highlanders" for the hutsuls and mention the countries where they live. Until the origin of the hutsuls is clearly proven, maybe we should not be biased about their origin. Gebeleizis 20:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are examples of folk costumes from regions throughout Ukraine [1]. As you can see, the Hutzul clothing (also seen here [2] is quite similar to that of western Ukraine (Podilia) although the Romanian aspects are clear. More on that here [3]. An informative description of various Ukrainian tribal groups is here [4].

During the nineteenth century almost all of the lowland population north of the Carpathians switched to calling themselves Ukrainian from Rusyn. For various historical reasons this process was not completed in more isolated areas (in the mountains, on the other side of various borders). However that doesn't mean that Hutsuls, or Rusyns, are an essentially different people from other western Ukrainians. Faustian 19:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello all, this is my first contribution to the article. Both my fathers and mothers families are entierly from the Carpathians and consider themselves Hutsul. But they also consider themselves fully Ukrainian. So I beleive it is a very personal desicion as to whether Hutsuls consider themselves Ukrainian or not. Last year I lived with my family over there for 2 months and I brought is exact topic up with everyone in my family, and a lot of people I met in thier and surrounding villages. Everyone I spoke with thought it strange to even ask if they as Hutsuls, consider themselves Ukrainian, the unanimous answer was yes. So as I said, I think it is a personal decision, but I would have to say that the majority of Hutsuls consider themelves strongly Ukrainian. WikiUke 21:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• Some prominent Romanian scholars contend that Hutzuls are slavicized dacians.--79.0.137.206 (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Я напишу по-русски мне так будет легче. Гуцулы, бойки, лемки это этнографические группы украинцев, и этому есть подтверждения. Вообще "Русины" или как их ещё называли немцы "Рутены" это устаревшее название украинцев. Сами гуцулы относят себя к украинцам. Я ещё не видел, чтобы гуцул относил себя к другой нации. Самое яркое потверждение этому это повесть Михаила Коцюбинского "Тени забытых предков", где показано, что гуцулы это такие же украинцы, как те украинцы которые проживают на Черкащине. Или Гуцульская руспублика, где гос.языком был украинский. И по этому не стоит относить гуцулов к русинам. Я общался с русином, так вот он сказал, что гуцульский говор не является русинским диалектом. Более того, гуцулов в Русинской Википедии вообще не рассматривают как часть русинской нации. Что касается бойков и лемков то здесь всё подругому. Бойки называют себя как украинцами, так и русинами. Хотя как утверждают многие иследователи, да и сами бойки, что они украинцы. Лемки, здесь ситуация кардинально меняется. И вот почему, украинские лемки само идентифицируют себя как украинцев, а вот польские лемки само идентифицируют себя как русины. Я прошу вас на странице "Русинский язык" удалить информацию, которая говорит, что гуцульский и бойковский говора это диалекты русинского языка. 80.245.114.128 (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

I recently cleaned up the text, and added but one Ukrainian link. If you read the edit yourselves, my goal was to strip away two things: bad grammar, and following Gebeleizis's comments, removing any bias. Many unnecessary references to Romania have been reinserted and strictly informative Ukrainian link was removed. I would like to revert these recent edits, but would prefer to talk them over before that.--tufkaa 18:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Romanian bias?

This article seems to reflect a Romanian point of view, which also claiemd for example that the Ukrainian-speaking population of Bukovina were simply Slavicised Romanians. As time permits I will work on changing this (btw a friend of mine is a Hutsul from Ukraine, from an old chieftain's family, who were also Ukrainian nationalists). The heartland of Hutzul country is in Ukraine, not Romania.Faustian 16:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And where exactly does it clai that the Ukrainian-speaking population of Bukovina are simply Slavicised Romanians? And what do you mean by "ukrainian-speaking population"? Please address the subject, that is either the hutsuls, either the Ukrainians (proper) minority from Romania.

Your edits and comments:

Traditional Ukrainian Hutsul culture... I`m sorry, but the Hutsuls are just that: Hutsuls. Hutsuls are not neccesarily Ukrainian. There are Polish, Ukrainian, Romanian hutsuls, and your edit suggests that this whole article refers only to the Ukrainian Hutsuls.

You are right. That shouldn't have been placed there, although with the exception of eight settlements within Romania, all of Hutsul territory is within modern Ukraine's borders.[5] Faustian 17:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do the hutsuls speak romanian then? And what is "ukrainean" and "ukraine"? The russians forced the polish and the romanians and others to learn russian and made up a region called "Borderland" with a people called "Border people". Half of ukraine is romanian territory, and the other half is polish. The hutsuls are romanians in language and history. There were no ukraineans when the hutsuls were allive and well in their own land. Stop portraying ukraine as something legit 46.97.169.66 (talk) 17:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

....bears a great resemblance to the cultures of neighboring Romania, Hungary and the Polish highlands. [6] :) Did you read from the link you posted? Next time I suggest you to do that before editing articles. Read and then let`s talk (also see Vlachs, Gorals, Moravian Wallachia). Bv-cristi

The article seems fine now. Faustian 17:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And here is a reference to historical claims by Romanians that the Ukrainians of Bukovina were Slavicized Romanians:[7].

I am satisfied, however, that the present article is accurate. Faustian 17:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

To be exact, they were called the "Romanians who forgot their native language" and links are indeed in the Rumanization article. --Irpen 20:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I understant what you`re both saying, but it was never my intention to say or to leave the impression that I support that idea. In Romania, there is also a Ukrainia (proper) minority, living mainly in the Danube Delta and Bukovina. But they are something different from the Hutsuls. I don`t want to comment on that article about Romanianisation, but from what I see it refers to the Ukrainians living in Greater Romania, when the whole of Bukovina (including the northern part were Ukrainians were the majority) was part of the Kingdom of Romania. Bv-cristi 09:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I am reverting the article to what it had been after Irpen's last revision for several reasons. Firslty, despite the clear Romanian element in Hutsul cultue (which I have retained), Hutsul's are certainly no less similar to western Ukrainians than they are to Romanians. To repeat my earlier comments in the discussion section: Here are examples of folk costumes from regions throughout Ukraine [8]. As you can see, the Hutzul clothing (also seen here [9] is quite similar to that of western Ukraine (Podilia) although the Romanian aspects are clear. More on that here [10]. An informative description of various Ukrainian tribal groups is here [11]. The article should reflect that fact.

With respect to the etymology of the term Hutsul - do you have references stating that it is an East Slavic word meaning bandit or outlaw? As a speaker of two east Slavic languages I can say that I haven't come across that meaning (which doesn't mean that it might not have an archaic origin). However, the following quite comprehensive source on a Hutsul website (sorry, written in Ukrainian) claims a Romanian origin for that word: [12]. regards Faustian 13:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Greir's Changes

Greier: Removal of info is vandalism. You have a pattern of removing references to Ukrainians with respect to Hutsuls, never mind that 99% of them (there are about 7 Hutsul villages in Romania) speak the Ukrainian/Rusyn language, etc. The items you remove are the ones linking Hutsuls to other western Ukrainians in terms of folk culture (see the section above please) and the fact that Hutsuls have been a major source of inspiration to Ukrainian writers, playing a role comparable in western Ukrainian literature comparable to that of cowboys for Americans or cossacks for the rest of Ukraine. I can only explain your actions by some sort of Romananian nationalist POV...Faustian 16:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

What?! 7 villages?!

Who the told you that? I am a Hutsul ethnic and I can tell you, Mr., that in Romania, only in Suceava county, there are more than 25 Hutsul villages, plus about 10 Galician villages. Plus, in Maramures County, official, there are more than 40 000 Ukrainians (this meaning Hutsuls, Rusyns, Galicians...). Hutsuls ain't Romanian but ain't Ukrainian either. Hutsuls, Lemks, Boiks, Horals and Rusyns are part of the same people - the Carpathian one. So don't defend so much the newly invented Ukraine or Romania.

According to the Encyclopedia of Ukraine (put together at the University of Toronto) there are eight Hutsul settlements in Romania [13]. While your claims based on personal experience are interesting, with all due respect I do not think that they trump data from legitimate academic sources. In addition to considering Hutsuls a distince nation, you seem to give the same designation to Galicians as well. I also have personal experiences with Hutsuls - all of whom are Ukrainian nationalists, proud of their local traditions, dialect, etc. And most Polish Horals are patriotic Poles. Faustian 16:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This is where Wiki policy comes into place. It is nice that you personally attest to a poarticular number of villages or towens or people but it needs to be backed up somewhere in a printed source. Otherwise it is deemed unacceptable information for a Wiki article. All you need to do is place a link to any site or puboication that states this. Otherwise it is own research and is discounted. Bandurist 19:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In Romania: 25 to 28 hutsul villages in Bucovina and some more in Maramures (check the links in the text please)

Academics make mistakes (sometimes more often than we'd like). I am from the hutsul region of Bucovina, lived there most of my life and this is the list of villages where we have a significant segment of hutsul population (And which used to be almost exclusively hutsul before World War Two): Izvoarele Sucevei, Moldova-Suliţa, Benia, Breaza de Sus, Breaza, Măgura, Lupcina, Cosilava, Brodina, Brodina de Sus, Sodău, Zalomestra, Cunurschi, Dotulsca, Argel, Rosca, Damacusa, Ciumârna, Iedu, Cârlibaba, Moldoviţa, Vatra Moldoviţei, Ulma, Nisipitu, Paltin. Count them please, as they are many more than 7. I can count TWENTY FIVE. And I didn't even put on this list the villages from Maramures. I certainly know much better than those "academics" (and I'll soon get my PhD in phyics too at a US university) about what is happening in my home area. Also, as an academic paper, check this address which supports my view: http://www.afebalk.org/rencontres2002/textes/F.Beaumont.pdf (it's a PDF file in French). You can count all these 25 villages in the "Hutsul Country" (Pays HuTsule). And on this address: http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/minority-hutsul.htm you can count TWENTY EIGHT hutsul setlements in Romania. So, I think we should correct the mistake about the "eight hutsul setlements". Gebeleizis 18:46, 3rd of August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the interesting information, but clam down please, no need to get so emotional about things. I was wrong when I stated "about seven villages" in the discussion, above, when indeed my source claimed eight settlements, not villages (a settlement may consist of a few nearby villages). The substance of what I said - that the overwhelming majority of Hutsuls live in Ukraine, not Romania, was correct.

Your ideas about a seperate Hutsul nationality are interesting but contradict my own experiences with numerous Hutsuls and with several facts (for example, Hutsul-lands were a stronghold for the Ukrainian Insurgent Army which like all successful guerrilla movements relied on local support for survival; on the last census only about 10,000 people claimed Rusyn nationality). Is your national orientation common among Hutsuls in Bukovyna or is it a more personal belief? Is it shared among your people in Ivano-Frankivsk? Incidentally, this blog describes a scene from a Hutzul wedding [14]. Respectfully Faustian 19:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
List of hutsul villages in Maramures, Romania: Poienile de sub Munte, Repedea, Bistra, Petrova, Leordina, Vişeu de Sus. That brings the total for Romania to at least 31 with the 25 settlements in Bucovina. I've just added this info so that people can have a fair idea for the extension of the hutsul population areas in Romania. Gebeleizis 16:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC).

Recent revert by user User:Rusyn

My recent edit was based on a reliable source. This was the decission of local legislature of Rakhiv district, the region were the most of the population are Hutzuls. This decission is in agreement with the census results: absolute majoritity of the eastern slavs living in the district declared their Ukrainian identity.

If you have conflicting information, please cite reliable sources confirming it.--AndriyK 16:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainian embroidery

The beaded embroidery is more Bukovynian than Hutsul. --Bandurist 22:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Hutsul as well:

Основні матеріали вишивання – ручнопряденні льняні, вовняні нитки, вовняні зсукані нитки (“коцик”), зсукані сплетені шнури, шовкові, металеві, срібні, золоті нитки, муліне, бісер, лелітки, сап’янові стрічки, ґудзики, корали, головки металевих цвяхів (бобрики), капслі.

Вишивка бісером поширена в районах, що межують з гірською Буковиною.

[15]. Mountain Bukovyna is a part of Hutsulshchyna, isn't it?

Поряд з вишивками бавовняними нитками у Вижниці носили також “рукавівки”, вишиті бісером

Vyzhnytsja is definitelly a part of Hutsulshchyna.

Here is one more link [16].--AndriyK 10:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

They may use beads/biser but the predominance of the green and the huge flowers to me look more like a Romanian/Moldavian influence which makes it more Bukovynian. I'm not the expert (although my mother was) in such fine details but I have never seen such embroidery acredited to the Hutsuls. Even looing at the various books I have I haven't seen anything like this accrdeyed to the Hutsuls. Would it not be more prudent to put in some embroidery which is more typical? What about the incrustation wood work. Nothing here at all. yet. --Bandurist 12:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have any Copyright free imagies of other type of Hutsul embroidery or of wood work please upload them for this article. This is always welocome.--AndriyK 13:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Moravian king Hetsyl?

I am Moravian, well versed in history, and I have never heard of this king. The spelling in any case is not Moravian, it would be Hecyl, if he existed. Please document your claim. V.B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.119.60.101 (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It occurred to me later that what is meant here is Moravian Serbia, perhaps. I will correct the text, until an expert on Serbian kings comes along. V.B. 21:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

One more time: there was no Moravian king or duke Hetsyl or Hetsyla. Maybe there was one in Serbian Moravia, but the reference cited does not document anything. In fact, it sounds downright dubious about it. Why would a Serbian duke have anything with the Hutsuls anyway? V.B. (talk) 05:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Utsul

Is this group related at all to the Utsul? Badagnani (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it, unless you're trying to connect the Utsul of southwest China with the Hutsuls of western Ukraine 5,000 miles to the west. Can you find any perceived Mongolian origin of the Utsul or Hutsul? The Hutsuls must be of Hungarian or Central Asian (Turkish) origins, since the two regions are close to both Hungary and mainland China. The Dzungar region of Xinjiang, China is the hypothetical point of origin for the Huns (known as Hsien-ko), Magyars in the 6th century AD and Mongols being closely related to Siberian tribes such as the Manchu whom taken over the Chinese Empire by the 12th century AD. Hutsuls may hold a link to the Hunnic tribes in eastern Europe in the 4th to 7th centuries AD, although it was only the Magyars whom permanently settled the Danube-Pannonian plains by the 8th to 9th centuries, before the Hutsuls had taken hold: the Hutsuls have a more ethnological Slavic than Magyar background, and they don't resemble anything near the Utsul of southern China. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 08:41, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Hutsul as an insult

I have heard the term "hutsul" used as a generic insult in a context that would refer to uncouth, lazy-brained, ignorant peasants. Any precedent of this used more generically? it was a surprise to notice in the article the possible etymology as "robbers", maybe that had something to do with it? YamaPlos talk 19:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Hutsuls, Ukrainians

"According to Ukrainian sources, Hutsuls identify themselves as a part of Ukrainian ethnos, having at the same time their local identity as a sub-ethnos.[4] However, many Rusyns disagree." "However, many Rusyns disagree." Source? I myself am descendant of Hutsuls and they identified as Ukrainians. Now will Rusyns tell Hutsuls how to identify? Come on...186.18.229.205 (talk) 21:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

removal of sources

Re: [17]. Ok. Is there any reason these sources are being removed? Are they unreliable? What's up? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and the edit mish-mashes two phrases together rendering the resulting text nonsensical. I'm inclined to believe this is just vandalism or possibly an issue of competence, but I'm willing to hear an explanation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Activism

It seems like there is a lot of political activism (rather than factual research) that has gone into this Wikipedia article. Most Hutsuls consider themselves to be Ukrainians. 75.76.61.77 (talk) 12:25, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymologhy

I am a “hutsul” and speak romanian. The etymologic meaning in romanian language is not thief, as you said, but the same as the slavic meaning. The only conection between “hoțul” and “huțul” are that they are similar in form. If you’re interested in the subject or want to confirm for yourself what I said, I suggest, reading P.H. Stahl or Paul Petrescu on the matter.

Refering to : “There are different versions for the origins of the name Hutsul. An explanation is that it comes from the Romanian word for "outlaw" (cf. Rom. hoţ - "thief", hoţul - "the thief").” — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtPlease (talk • contribs) 07:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

recent edits

These edits are both POV and involve bad grammar. The sources given may not represent the general view. Volunteer Marek  22:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

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IP edits

Dear IP,

please stop content removal without consensus. Thank You!(KIENGIR (talk) 17:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC))

New edit or Reversion to Pre 13th August 2018 Idea

The issue is fairly simple:

• The citations do not actually back what is written, in fact some of the citations say the opposite (hence the intro statement changed on the 13th August 2018 is actually not verifiable and thus breaks Wikipedia's policy of verifiability)
• The un-referenced change made on the 13th August 2018 was not done with consensus e.g. "Wikipedia's verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space."
• Alot of people clearly disagree with the change made on the 13th August 2018

Since 2018 a niche of editors on this page have made a concerted effort to remove any mention of Ukraine or Hutsuls connection to them, this is unnecessary, this page should be a reflection of fact The edit made on the 17th January, with more references than the 13th August version, that actually back what I have edited is the best way forward, the 17th January version acknowledges the fact that a minority of Hutsuls prefer the archaic 'Rusyn' whilst the majority and the official position OF THE WORLD HUTSUL CONGRESS GROUP is that they are part of a Ukrainian ethnicity. This really should not be too much of a problem, considering the 13th August version was done with zero approval and there have been numerous attempts to undo it. This page clearly does not appease both sides of the pendulum and I think it should please both.Dr Lintz Dobay (talk) 07:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Dr Lintz Dobay

Yes, I noticed this as well, the citations that are used to back up "Hutsuls mostly regard themselves as a part of a broader Rusyn ethnicity, alongside two other groups from the cross-border region of Transcarpathia: the Boykos and Lemkos.[4][5][6]" don't actually state what they are supposed to. The citations do not say what the sentences imply they do and/or are inaccessible. The irony is that the version of 21:33, 5 October 2017‎ used the very same citations of Olson and Schaefer used currently to substantiate "Hutsuls mostly regard themselves as a part of a broader Rusyn ethnicity" to back the statement "are an ethno-cultural group of Ukrainians". Thus, ultimately almost all the citations now used to back the baseless statement that "Hutsuls mostly regard themselves as a part of a broader Rusyn ethnicity" were previously used to say that they were a sub-group of Ukrainians. Also, when scrolling through the talk page I noticed Dr Lintz Dobay, that no consensus was gained to change the page to what it is now. Thus, I motion to restore the page to one that reflects the contents of the citations and does not just retain old citations for new subjective information, if that means your version Dr Lintz Dobaythen so be it.Tobias13111 (talk) 12:21, 1 March 2021 (UTC)Tobias13111 See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/YanT121#Suspected_sockpuppets - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

EXACTLY!! As I said the problem is really quite simple. In Layman's terms a user contentiously edited the intro paragraph without consensus on the talk page and used old citations for new information that it doesn't support and in some cases contradicts. It is really strange that this version of the article uses the very same citations that were used to state that Hutsuls are generally regarded as a sub-group of Ukrainians to now justify they are part of a 'broader Rusyn ethnicity'. My version mentions both sides of the spectrum, the general, administrative and view of the World Hutsul Congress that Hutsuls are a sub-group of Ukrainians as well as the insistence of some editors for unknown reasons and with unknown sources to prove the unique self identification of Hutuls as 'Rusyns'. Hopefully this works for everyone. Dr Lintz Dobay (talk) 11:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)Dr Lintz Dobay

"Notable people": any proof they are Hutsuls?

For the majority of them, the linked articles make no reference to their Hutsul ethnicity. So far it's just a long list of hearsay and "citation needed" cases. This also goes counter to Wiki policy regarding pinning an ethnicity on people, especially when still alive. I'm happy to believe they're all Hutsuls, but a claim by some editor is not yet proof. One is even explicitely identified as Lemko - is that synonymous to Hutsul?! Arminden (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)