Talk:Sequoyah

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Mispelling in Syllabary

I'm afraid I don't know how to change the syllabary but where Sequoyah's name is spelled in Cherokee, instead of reading "S-si-quo-ya" as Sequoyah signed his name, it actually reads "S-si-quo-o." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.76.255 (talk) 01:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That last character is actually neither "ya" (13Ef Ꮿ) nor "o" (13A3 Ꭳ), but "yi" (13F1 Ᏹ). See Unicode Cherokee syllabary code chart and Cherokee syllabary. The unsigned user above gave no source to indicate that that is Sequoyah's own spelling. If this information really is from Holmes & Smith, it looks as if whoever put it in here copied it badly, not knowing the language or the script.

The website of The Sequoyah Birthplace Museum ("a property of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians") writes the name as ᏎᏉᏯ "se-quo-ya". Lacking access to Holmes & Smith, on the basis of that source I am changing the spelling and source in the article. --Thnidu (talk) 02:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa owns several documents handwritten by Sequoyah, from the John Ward Payne papers. Two different signed documents appears in the books, Treasures of Gilcrease and Holmes and Smith. Both signatures are spelled "ᏍᏏᏉᏯ," giving us two sources for that spelling. The spelling makes sense, since none of us call him "Say-quoyah." Cheers, Uyvsdi (talk) 03:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

References

Discussion for changes made 25 Sep 2004

The changes may be disputed. The four subsections below discuss those changes. If we can reach a consensus, I'll be glad to make the appropriate corrections. CPret 05:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of Sequoyah "A Real Pig"?

An editor of the article has stated, perhaps not really intending to denigrate Sequoyah, that Sequoyah means in Cherokee, "A real pig". Isn't the etymology more correctly "having pig-like features" or "resembling a pig" and generally thought to refer to Sequoyah's crippled foot? CPret 05:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The etymology of the name as "a real pig" is correct. The -ya'i suffix refers to an exemplar of a group. Another example of this is the word for "Native American" which is anvwiya'i, for "real person", or "most person-like person." If there is a better way of wording it feel free to use it. It's not intended to denigrate him at all, though the folk explanation I have heard from several Cherokees was that the name derived from the fact that he ignored his wife while he was working on the syllabary. To say "resembling a pig" or piggish would be a different derivation of the word sikhwa. 13:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did Sequoyah invent the awesome awesome awesome Cherokee syllabary?

Is there any serious consideration that Sequoyah did not invent the Cherokee syllabary? The Cherokee Council as early as 1825, declared "... Cherokee characters, the invention of George Guist, a Cherokee." I would tend to rely on the records made contemporary to the events. CPret 05:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Sequoyah's English name was George Guist (or Guess, Gist). Native Americans usually had two names-- one for which their tribal members called them and one for English speakers. Also spelling of names were not consistent, most people back then were lucky to read and write. Rob (talk) 16:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this a picture of Sequoyah?

Se-quo-yah

The picture is from a lithograph from "The History of the Indian Tribes of North America" by McKinney and Hall, where the subject is identified as SE-QUO-YAH. The McKinney and Hall books are generally considered authoritative, and, in any case, the artist would have known the identity of his subject. CPret 05:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Link to Tell Them They Lie

I moved the link, Excerpts from Tell Them They Lie, here for discussion. The link is to a partial transcript of "Tell Them They Lie: The Sequoyah Myth" by Traveller Bird, 1971. I believe the purported facts in this book and the authenticity of the author were discredited years ago and the book determined to be a work of fiction. Any proof to the contrary would be appreciated. CPret 05:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The link is now dead. Pete unseth (talk) 23:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Sequoyah and Sequoia

Some disputes seem to be present among botanists about whether Sequoyah was source for name of Sequoia tree. Apparently even as eminent an authority as Asa Gray has questioned the link, and the namer of Sequoia (Endlicher, 1847), left no notes to explain his choice of name. Web link may not persist, but is here: http://www.conifers.org/cu/se/index.htm. This web article makes formal citation here: Hartesveldt, Richard J.; Harvey, H. Thomas; Shelhammer, Howard S.; Stecker, Ronald E. 1975. The giant sequoia of the Sierra Nevada. Washington DC: National Park Service. An engaging but professional (if a bit dated) treatment of the largest conifer.

Cursive Form

I have heard that there is/was a cursive form of the syllabary. I can very well believe that people found the illustraated characters difficult to reproduce quickly enough to write fluently, and therefor a cursive form must have existed. Can anyone help with information about this, and a sample of the cursive form? Too Old 15:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Osiyo! I studied the Cherokee language a little, some years ago. According to my textbook (which I will attempt to locate and cite), the original form, as written by Sequoyah, was cursive, indeed very loopy, with a very thin line; an illustration of it is included in the textbook. This was the form that was originally demonstrated to the council. The cursive form proved unsuitable for printing at the time, so new shapes were devised (partly by reusing all or parts of existing type). My memory is that the textbook credits Samuel Worcester for part (or all?) of the work of creating the final shapes. Although the shapes that we use today are not solely Sequoyah's work, the essence of the syllabary, the organization of Cherokee spoken sound into written form, will forever remain his gift to us, and a testament to his genius, so long as people study and revere language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.9.128.193 (talk) 04:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You can compare the orginal cursive and later block version of the syllabary here at Language Geek. I understand that actually it was Sequoyah himself who made the modifications towards a print form of his syllabary, at the behest of Samuel Worchester -- will keep a look over for a proper reference for that. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Comment transferred from Comments page

I just wanted to interject a little detail. I knew a gentleman, a sculptor and medical illustrator in WW2, named David Villasenor. He did a sculpture of Sequoyah that was donated to the Cherokee Center in Oklahoma. This was in the mid-late '70s, when he lived in San Dimas, CA. I tried to look David up in Wiki, but couldn't find him.

That's all ...

Bob Burkhardt (talk) 14:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC) (I just moved the comment. I didn't make it.)

The presentation of the sculpture was in 1976. It was presented to the Cherokee Nation on behalf of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. It was received by Chief John Ross, and was mentioned in the Cherokee Phoenix. [[1]]

Were Sequoyah's fingers cut off?

I was reading this biography and recalled a visit i'd made to the Southwestern Museum in Los Angeles a few years ago where i'd read that his fingers had been cut off as a result of accusations of witchcraft. It was a plaque in commemoration of his great deed of bringing writing. The problem is i haven't seen this claim anywhere else and i'd normally dismiss it if it weren't that i'd seen this plaque at the Southwestern Museum, which has a significant collection of Native American artifacts and it seems to me that its factual accuracy should not be so quickly dismissed. Nevertheless, i tried to look at a few sources at our university but didn't see anything about his fingers and tried a quick online search but didn't find any reputable source to corroborate the claim that his fingers had been cut off. It would be interesting to find evidence of this supposed event as i believe it quite significant and worthy of inclusion in the page, but don't include it now as i don't want to add something this pivotal without ample evidence. I will come back to this subject in a short while and try to locate sources for the claim, but if any of you out there are aware of this, it would be informative not only to find out if it happened, but who did it so that nobody tries to attribute this deed to the wrong party. Skaaii (talk) 08:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• 
  The top portion of the Sequoyah Memorial at the Southwest Museum. Notice his fingers are cut off at the joints.
• 
  The bottom portion of the Sequoyah Memorial at the Southwest Museum. Notice the inscription that describes the event.

Traveller Bird's book about Sequoyah says that he was mutilated, but its generally dismissed because its narrative manages to contradict everything else that has been written about that period of Cherokee history, including contemporary Cherokee sources.

Yes, he was accused of witchcraft; no, his fingers weren't cut off, which is why there are no reliable references on the subject. -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Which Wife?

Which wife allegedly burned Sequoyah's shack down? Was it Sally or Utiya? The source does not clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.12.72 (talk) 19:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Article assessment

I have marked this page as class B for WP:Oklahoma, per Bob Burkhardt's comment on the Article assessment summary page. Bruin2 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Signature

This page starts off saying Sequoyah signed his name ᏍᏏᏉᏯ, which makes me wonder whether there are pictures of his signature we could use. Other biographies sometimes include a signature, like James Cook. It would be cool to see one in the Cherokee syllabary. I did a very quick search and only found one we can't use (Copyright 2013 by Western Carolina University): [2], found on this page. It's interesting to see how he (and three others) wrote their syllabary letters (I'm not quite sure who the three other people are, but perhaps they have Wikipedia pages too). Sequoyah's Ꮝ and Ꮙ are recognizable but fairly different from the way they look in the modern Cherokee font (at least the one I have on this computer). I would suspect his signature could be found on some US government site, like the Library of Congress. Can anyone find it? Pfly (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Sequoyah in Popular Culture

Is it alright if I put a section of Sequoyah's appearances in popular culture? For example, he appeared in the alternate history North American Confederacy Series novel The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith, in which the United States becomes a Libertarian state after Albert Gallatin intrudes into the Whiskey Rebellion to help the farmers rather than the government. This leads to the rebellion becoming the Second American Revolution and eventually leads to George Washington getting overthrown and executed in 1794. Sequoyah (named Sequoyah Guess in the timeline) served as the eighth President of the North American Confederacy from 1840 until his death in a battle in 1842 since the were no Indian Wars in the alternate timeline. He was the first Native American to serve as NAC President and was succeeded by Osceola.

I tried putting this on the article in its own section, but it got deleted the next day. If anyone doesn't beleive me, look at these two articles that will state what I said!:

• North American Confederacy

• List of fictional United States presidencies of historical figures (A-G)

--75.68.122.13 (talk) 12:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian

Painting is NOT of Sequoyah

According to this the portrait in this article is of Thomas Maw, not Sequoyah. --Rebroad (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, this attests to the same. --Rebroad (talk) 13:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe. This seems to be authentic. The Cherokee Nation and Tahlequah By Deborah L. Duvall[3] This source Sequoyah and the Invention of the Cherokee Alphabet By April R. Summitt also suggests it is Thomas Maw. The problem of course is that this apparently comes from Traveller BirdSo it's relatively recent. And the Smithsonian thinks it's genuine.[4] I don't think it can be removed, but maybe it should be discussed in the article. Doug Weller talk 14:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure why the Smithsonian's claim about the painting should be so quickly dismissed by an undocumented claim on a website that is about the location of graves. No claims by Traveller Bird should be automatically accepted, but rather examined carefully. I find no reason to mention the dispute about the authenticity of the painting in the article. Pete unseth (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

How do you propose we do that? I'm not willing to dismiss the painting, but the claim that it was actually Thomas Maw should be mentioned. Doug Weller talk 17:19, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sequoyah/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I am being conservative rating this as C. Looks like it could be B. Given the work which has apparently been done on it, I was surprised not to see a rating. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 14:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 14:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 05:46, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Wut-teh vs Wuteh

Both are apparently used to refer to his mother. Is there a definitive concept of which is correct? Even if not it might be good to decide on one and stick with it. (It's also possible I don't understand why two names are given.) Corwinlw (talk) 03:17, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

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Linguist

Erudite Manatee, whereas I may agree with you that Sequoyah is a linguist, he did not study languages extensively. Sequoyah was monolingual, meaning he only spoke/read/understood Cherokee. He did study the spoken Cherokee language and broke down the sounds of its vowels and consonants to give each syllable a character. Though he could not read a word of it, he used a Bible, written in King James English, to form the symbols used for the Syllabary. It is quite a remarkable accomplishment. His young daughter assisted him too. She was also his first student. I left your good faith revision as is because it is technically true, but the explanation is somewhat misleading. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 2017 Native American Dollar Reverse.png

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Born when?

At the top of the article it says he was born in 1770. Then, later, it says 1778. SheldonHelms (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

"One of the few times"?

"His achievement was one of the few times in recorded history that an individual who was a member of a pre-literate group created an original, effective writing system." says the article. I can easily believe that, though I'm an amateur student of writing systems. The wording implies that there are others who did this, without naming any or citing any sources. From what I know, I wonder if it would not be correct to say he is the only person to do this. The other examples I can think of for scripts created by known (or supposed) individuals -- Cree/Inuktituk syllabary, Pollard script, Hangul -- are either created by outsiders (the first two) or a replacement script for an already literate community (Hangul).

If there are actually other examples, it would be good to cite them. Paul Koning (talk) 20:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, it doesn't really even make sense to hem it in to "recorded history". As far as anyone will ever know, there were four totally independent inventions of writing in human history—which funny enough, categorically removes them from recorded history—Sumerian cuneiform, Egyptian hieroglyphs, Chinese characters, and Maya glyphs, in that order chronologically.

Moreover, and this is where I get excited—why limit oneself to individuals? Writing is invented when written symbols begin to carry spoken language, and as far as we can tell this happened in each of the above instances with proto-writing, simple ideograms pictorally communicating ideas adopting a phonetic dimension to become logographies.

Really, he's in an extremely select club of human beings ever if you consider that the communities that could have plausibly "invented writing" in the above cases were likely extremely small. In the broadest sense, I could see the figure being in the low hundreds depending on how you want to stretch "collaborated to invent". I need to do more research on this. Remsense留 04:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

There are very few who have invented scripts. If you mean people who worked out orthographies for their languages, those who worked with existing scripts, then there will be easily over a thousand. People who devised orthographies from existing scripts did a totally different task from creating scripts. Pete unseth (talk) 23:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I am speaking about the communities that originally invented writing with no prior exposure to the concept, I cannot imagine this process didn't happen "communally" in some way. The derivation of Etruscan from Greek, for example, was a qualitatively different thing from these other two categories, as literate people were involved in the adaptation. Sequoyah was in the middle: a person that was exposed to the idea of writing, but was himself illiterate, but invented a writing system. Remsense留 23:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)