Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

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For a list of foreign-language reviewers see FAC foreign language reviewers.

FAC mentoring: first-time nominators

A voluntary mentoring scheme, designed to help first-time FAC nominators through the process and to improve their chances of a successful outcome, is now in action. Click here for further details. Experienced FAC editors, with five or more "stars" behind them, are invited to consider adding their names to the list of possible mentors, also found in the link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

FAC source reviews

For advice on conducting source reviews, see Wikipedia:Guidance on source reviewing at FAC.

Requesting a mentor for first time nominator

Hello, I'm Pbritti! I primarily create content related to Christian liturgical and American architectural subjects, with six GAs in those areas. I've been interested in the FAC process for a long time but have never felt comfortable participating when I still sometimes feel like a novice regarding the higher-level considerations. After much work, consultation, and further self-assessment, I finally feel ready to nominate an article: Free and Candid Disquisitions, on a mid-18th-century religious pamphlet by John Jones that had a substantial impact on Anglican and Unitarian worship practices. The article passed as a GA earlier this year and underwent a low-turnout PR more recently. Given my inexperience, I am extending a request for a mentor.

Some considerations for a possible mentor:

• I live in the Eastern Time Zone of the United States (presently UTC−04:00)
• My work schedule causes peaks and valleys in activity on-Wiki but I edit daily. For the next couple months, I'll be fairly available with four-day weekends
• I have access to the Wikipedia Discord but would prefer to communicate either on-Wiki or via email
• I'm more than willing to offer my help in any tedious project on-Wiki as compensation for mentorship (maybe you need someone who can swap umlauts for diaereses across a couple hundred articles?)

If you're interested or wish for me to offer further details regarding myself and my proposed FAC, please reply here or on my talk page. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

New statistics tool to get information about an editor's GA history

I mentioned this at WT:GAN, but there may be editors here who would be interested who don't watch that page: I've created a GA statistics page that takes an editor's name as input and returns some summary information about their interactions with GA. It shows all their nominations and reviews, and gives a summary of their statistics -- number promoted, number that are still GAs, and the review-to-GA ratio. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

A useful summary! Thank you. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Very handy. Thanks Mike. Although "Promoted GA nominations: 108; Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 50" caused me to panic before I realised that it was because 58 GANs had been promoted to FA, and so - technically - they ceased to be GAs. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to work out my Promoted GA nominations: 17 but Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 37 ... followed by a lit of 19! - SchroCat (talk) 08:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It was a combination of two things. One was a bug -- if a nominator put spaces around their username, as happened here for example, the tool was not removing them, so that nomination was credited to ' Schrodinger's cat is alive' with a leading space. That's now fixed, so asking the tool for GAs for that old user name will now correctly report those old GAs. The "still GAs" number is maintained by SDZeroBot, which automatically tracks username changes -- that's why it shows 37 for "SchroCat". I decided not to automatically connect old usernames to new ones because not everyone wants their old usernames advertised, but I can do so on request. I'm going to assume in your case you do want to connect them since the signature was "SchroCat" even back then, so I've added your names to the name-change list. You should now see the correct results -- let me know if anything still looks wrong. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah - that looks much more like it. Thanks Mike! - SchroCat (talk) 11:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Nice work, and thanks to Mike for fixing the GAN bot's count of successful nominations for those of us with apostrophes. Cheers — Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This GA statistics page sounds very useful! By consolidating the interactive summary information of editors on one page, it provides a convenient way to understand the contribution and level of participation of each editor. This not only helps to improve transparency, but also encourages more participation and interaction. Hhhlx (talk) 04:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this, Mike! I've been hoping for something that would track my articles promoted past GA. That said, there a few oddities that might cause issues for somebody else. My own tally of my GAs is 924, including the one promoted today, while your bot says 941, not including the one promoted today. Obviously I haven't tried to reconcile them yet, but it's entirely possible that I might have missed a few over the years. And I'm very suspicious that my ratio of reviews to noms shows as exactly 1:1. The reviews and noms for this year seem to be complete, for what it's worth. The first two noms on my list, Stalingrad-class battlecruiser and Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleship, don't show as promoted because the articles were renamed after the review. Not sure exactly what needs to be done to fix that.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with those two was that the GA subpages hadn't been moved to follow the parent page move. I've now done that and updated the database so those two should be OK now; there are probably some others like that around. There's now a bot that cleans up after incomplete moves of subpages so those issues should gradually go away. I'm going to make a change to the tool to see if I can speed it up by checking the GA and FA pages for the name of the article, rather than checking each article page for the GA or FA template; that might run into a different problem in that it won't detect that an article is a GA if those pages still list it under the old name. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I just tried that change and reverted it; it was unreliable because so many GAs are still in the GA pages under names that are now redirects. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike. I will note that the bot has now caught my one failed nom.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Spent a couple of minutes trying to figure out why my tally doesn't match the bot's and noticed that it's not counting at least some of my noms on which I collaborated with other people. Talk:HMS Ramillies (07)/GA1 is one; maybe it matters who's listed first, I dunno.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Currently GA stats don't allow conomination credits -- it could probably be done but for now the nominator is assumed to be either the editor who adds the nomination or the editor whose name appears in the nomination template. This is the relevant edit, so Parsecboy is listed as the nominator. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)=

I was wondering if that was the reason, but now I'm even more perplexed about the difference between the tallies as I've done a lot of collaboration, although I was often the nominator.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll follow up on your talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Template usage

Is it ok to use {{cot}}/{{cob}} in FAC discussions for reasons other than to hide offtopic discussions? I’d like to use them to hide lengthy threads that have been resolved. YBG (talk) 14:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

PS, is it really true that there are only four FAC coordinators? My hats off to y'all for performing this important service!!!! YBG (talk) 14:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Speaking just for myself, I would rather you didn't. It would make life slightly more difficult for me every time I look at the nom to consider if it is ready for closure.

It is, an all-time high I think, and thank you. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: My idea would be to put cot/cob only around those things I consider resolved, and clearly mark them as so. I thought this would make it easier, not harder, for you to tell if it is ready for closure. YBG (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The role of the cords isn’t vote-counting the number of supports, but weighing the strength of the review. Capping means they have to uncap everything to be able to read it through and make a judgement. - SchroCat (talk) 04:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, @Gog the Mild/@SchroCat so if I understand correctly, the coordinators still want to read the full discussion about areas in which I at one time found fault but have now been modified to the point that I no longer find fault. YBG (talk) 12:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

They may wish to, and having to open cots to decide adds marginally to their workload. They are not in any way forbidden and you are free to use them if you wish. If a week or two later you feel your ears burning, it is probably a coordinator closing the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• Per the instructions, many templates are deprecated from use at FAC, but For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}. Perhaps somewhere else where community expectations have out stripped our decades-old instructions. ——Serial Number 54129 10:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  The instructions are there partly to keep the page size of WP:FAC under control but also for the archives because the reviews (for reasons I've never really understood) are all transcluded in the archives. So it's not just an arbitrary rule from years ago that doesn't reflect current practice. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  @HJ Mitchell: Don't even try and fucking patronise me HJM. I know perfectly well why the limits are there, and either you deliberately misunderstand me in order to make a different point, or you just do not understand. You will at least apologise for insinuating that I have not read the instructions I have just cited: slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. This a distinct point to that made by the OP. Firstly is the fact that, per the instructions, templates are avoided because speed, etc. Secondly—the ease with which a co-ord should be able to read a candidature—is obviously a different reason. My point, at the end of the day, is that as it stands, the OP would be within his rights to use {{cob}} etc because it is one of the few explicitly exempted from the disallowed templates (i.e., cot and cob are allowed). All I am saying is that if we want to forbid closing/hatting any sections, then go ahead, but ensure that the rule allows it. Which it does not at the moment. This would not be a new codification. It would be expanding upon an extant codification. And, incidentally, I seem to remember moving discussions to the talk page is deemed acceptable, but I fail to see why having to click the [show] is more onerous on a co-ord than opening a new page. Cheers, ——Serial Number 54129 13:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that WP:PEIS is probably a good rationale to keep the rule around. Sohom (talk) 14:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  {{cob}} and {{cot}} have no noticeable effect on the PEIS; that's why they are exempted. They are alternatives to {{collapse}} which requires all the collapsed text to be within the template, which can have a very significant effect on the PEIS. That's not to comment on whether they should be used to collapse anything other than offtopic comments, just to say that PEIS is not a reason to disallow it. SN, I didn't think Harry was being patronizing; I might well have posted the same comment that he did and I wouldn't have intended to patronize you if I had done so. I don't think he deserved the response you gave him. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yell, fucking fuck it then, since you vouch him. Struck, with apologies to HJM for my unnecessary brusqueness. For the record, replying to a point that hasn't been made while appearing to ignore one that has, can certainly lead—albeit mistakenly—to a sense of being gaslit. And gas is very good at lighting blue touch paper. Cheers! ——Serial Number 54129 17:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wasn't expecting such a hostile response! Not the swearing, swear all you fucking like. But I'm not the template cabal telling you what you can or can't do with your templates! ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think {{cot}} and {{cot}} should be disallowed for PEIS. But having the general "keep template use to a minimum" rule in it's current form makes sense since PEIS exists. Sohom (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The selected article candidate page on Wikipedia is a very interesting place to showcase potential selected articles nominated by editors. Browsing this page provides readers with an opportunity to discover high-quality knowledge. Hhhlx (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• As a reviewer, I prefer everything to be easy to see. For one thing it stops the same points being re-raised. Johnbod (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

FAC reviewing statistics and nominator reviewing table for April 2024

Here are the FAC reviewing statistics for April 2024. The tables below include all reviews for FACS that were either archived or promoted last month, so the reviews included are spread over the last two or three months. A review posted last month is not included if the FAC was still open at the end of the month. The facstats tool has been updated with this data.

Reviewers for April 2024

# reviews Type of review Reviewer Content Source Image Accessibility Jo-Jo Eumerus 2 12 5 Nikkimaria 9 SchroCat 5 FunkMonk 5 Mike Christie 4 1 Jens Lallensack 5 Buidhe 3 1 ChrisTheDude 4 Hog Farm 3 UndercoverClassicist 3 Kusma 3 Wehwalt 3 AirshipJungleman29 2 1 Draken Bowser 2 1 Gog the Mild 2 1 Dudley Miles 2 David Fuchs 1 1 Eem dik doun in toene 2 PSA 2 Tim riley 2 AryKun 1 1 PCN02WPS 2 Shapeyness 1 1 Serial Number 54129 2 Pseud 14 2 Chompy Ace 1 SafariScribe 1 Magiciandude 1 Premeditated Chaos 1 Patrick Welsh 1 750h+ 1 The Knight Watch 1 Amakuru 1 Jenhawk777 1 Grungaloo 1 TompaDompa 1 Cukie Gherkin 1 MaranoFan 1 Mujinga 1 CactiStaccingCrane 1 Daniel Case 1 Sammi Brie 1 The Morrison Man 1 Femke 1 Sohom Datta 1 Aa77zz 1 Heartfox 1 SnowFire 1 Dylan620 1 Biogeographist 1 SporkBot 1 SusunW 1 Wolverine XI 1 Kablammo 1 MyCatIsAChonk 1 Volcanoguy 1 HurricaneHiggins 1 Borsoka 1 Matarisvan 1 RecycledPixels 1 Remsense 1 Nick-D 1 100cellsman 1 SandyGeorgia 1 ZooBlazer 1 Elli 1 Kerbyki 1 Rodney Baggins 1 Aza24 1 Srnec 1 Graham Beards 1 Totals 104 20 19 0

Supports and opposes for April 2024

# declarations Declaration Editor Support Oppose converted to support Struck oppose Struck support Oppose None Total Jo-Jo Eumerus 19 19 Nikkimaria 9 9 SchroCat 4 1 5 Jens Lallensack 4 1 5 FunkMonk 2 3 5 Mike Christie 3 1 1 5 Buidhe 1 3 4 ChrisTheDude 4 4 AirshipJungleman29 1 1 1 3 UndercoverClassicist 1 2 3 Kusma 2 1 3 Draken Bowser 1 1 1 3 Hog Farm 2 1 3 Wehwalt 2 1 3 Gog the Mild 1 1 1 3 Dudley Miles 2 2 PSA 1 1 2 Pseud 14 2 2 David Fuchs 1 1 2 Tim riley 2 2 Eem dik doun in toene 2 2 AryKun 1 1 2 PCN02WPS 2 2 Serial Number 54129 2 2 Shapeyness 2 2 Grungaloo 1 1 Jenhawk777 1 1 MyCatIsAChonk 1 1 SnowFire 1 1 Chompy Ace 1 1 SandyGeorgia 1 1 Sammi Brie 1 1 ZooBlazer 1 1 Daniel Case 1 1 HurricaneHiggins 1 1 Volcanoguy 1 1 Dylan620 1 1 Magiciandude 1 1 Biogeographist 1 1 SafariScribe 1 1 Elli 1 1 The Morrison Man 1 1 Matarisvan 1 1 Borsoka 1 1 TompaDompa 1 1 Premeditated Chaos 1 1 SporkBot 1 1 Femke 1 1 Kerbyki 1 1 Rodney Baggins 1 1 RecycledPixels 1 1 Cukie Gherkin 1 1 MaranoFan 1 1 Wolverine XI 1 1 Patrick Welsh 1 1 SusunW 1 1 Srnec 1 1 Sohom Datta 1 1 Aza24 1 1 Mujinga 1 1 Remsense 1 1 Kablammo 1 1 The Knight Watch 1 1 Amakuru 1 1 750h+ 1 1 Graham Beards 1 1 Heartfox 1 1 Aa77zz 1 1 CactiStaccingCrane 1 1 100cellsman 1 1 Nick-D 1 1 Totals 58 1 1 0 13 70 143

Due to some temporary technical issues I have not generated the rolling 12-month summary I normally add to these reports. I doubt if anyone is too upset by the omission, but it should be back next month. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

FACs needing feedback

If anyone is looking for a nomination to review, there are (currently) four in "FACs needing feedback" - at the top of this page, on the right - which would all benefit from another review. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Capitalization of source titles

Question about how to apply the consistent citation format requirements came up here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Time limits?

I just nominated Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Heptamegacanthus/archive1 and it was closed because there was no significant movement. But two hours before it was closed there was a long and excellent list of recommendations. I don't think it's reasonable to be able to make all the changes within 2 hours. Did I cross some time limit that I was not aware of? Mattximus (talk) 17:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's up to coordinator discretion, but FACs are not intended to be indefinite peer reviews. Even if you had quickly addressed those comments and the user had supported, you still wouldn't have had a consensus to promote, hence it was archived. You can work on the edits and engage with the commenter on the talk page or another venue to prep it if you intend to renom in the future. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Second nom?

@FAC coordinators: , would it be okay for me to put up a second nom? My current nom has been open a fortnight and has several (six) supports and passes on images and sources, so the heavy lifting seems to have been done there. No probs if you want me to wait a bit further, but I’d be grateful for a second too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 04:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

SchroCat go ahead. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 13:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks David: you're a star. Cheers- SchroCat (talk) 13:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Idea

What does everybody think about a process chart at Featured Article candidates? It'll essentially be a board that includes how many supports/opposes the nomination has, as well as including if a source/image check have been done. Thoughts? 750h+ 12:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

This has been suggested a couple of times, and has never gained traction. One reason is that not all supports are created equal -- a drive by support from a new editor with no comments is not as helpful to the coords as a support that makes it clear exactly what has been reviewed and what the basis of a support is. A support on prose is not the same as a support from a content expert. I don't think it's a good idea to reinforce the idea that the coords are just vote-counting. One could make the same argument against the support/oppose summaries in the FAC viewer, but I think those are useful since they help reviewers quickly spot FACs that are short of reviews. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Changes to FAC and GAN statistics tools

I have combined the two statistics tools that I maintain into one location. The GAN tool will continue to be at the same URL, but that site now hosts the FAC statistics tool as well. The FAC statistics will no longer update at the old location, here; they will only be updated at the new location. I will add a banner to that page making it clear that the data is no longer being updated.

The only FAC statistics tool I've moved is the editor query, since I think it was the one most often used. If anyone is in the habit of using any of the other queries available from the current FAC statistics tool, let me know, and I'll add it to the new location. Please let me know of any problems with the new tool. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

A small thing, but on the new FAC tool if I enter the name of an editor with no FAC history I get "500 Internal Server Error" rather than a page showing no FAC noms/reviews. On the old tool, I get what I assume is the intended behavior. Ajpolino (talk) 15:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the difference between FA and GA again?

I have been thinking for a long time about the difference between FA and GA, and it feels like they both somewhat look the same. WP:GVF describes "featured articles must be our very best work; good articles meet a more basic set of core editorial standards and are decent." In this case, does this mean that FA must comprehensive—meaning that the article contains a lot of perspectives, research, and many other facts globally—whereas GA means that the article is broad in its coverage (GACR3) but needs some further expansion? Speaking of comprehensiveness, as one of the criteria in FA, I have seen a discussion where a user asked about it based on the reviewer's perspectives, but I would like to understand it more strongly. Regards. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The distinction between FAs and GAs is indeed nuanced, but it essentially comes down to the level of quality and comprehensiveness expected for each category. I'll try to compare them in regards to a few criteria that set them apart.

• FAs must be thorough and cover the topic in depth. This means that the article should include a wide range of perspectives, extensive research, and all relevant facts to provide a complete understanding of the subject. It should leave no significant aspect unexplored or inadequately covered. GAs, on the other hand, should cover the topic broadly, addressing the main aspects sufficiently. However, they do not need to delve as deeply into every nuance as FA articles do.
• The prose of an FA must be of the highest quality—clear, engaging, and free from errors. The article should be well-structured, with coherent flow and readability. For GAs, the prose should be clear and readable, but the standards are not as stringent as those for FA. It should be free of major errors but can tolerate minor issues that do not significantly detract from the reading experience.
• For FAs, sources should be of the highest quality, comprehensive, and fully verifiable. The article should follow Wikipedia's citation guidelines rigorously. GAs require reliable sources and appropriate citations, but the sourcing does not need to be as exhaustive as for FAs. The key is that the sources must support the article's content sufficiently.

In essence, while GAs are solid articles that meet core editorial standards and are well-written and informative, FAs represent the pinnacle of quality on Wikipedia, requiring meticulous attention to detail, balance, and thoroughness. The distinction lies in the extent of coverage and the rigor of the quality standards applied. I hope this helps. FrB.TG (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It is worth saying that the gap between GA and FA has narrowed over time, as reviewing standards at GA have got tighter—simply copy-pasting a tickbox template is no longer considered an acceptable review there. However, there is still a large gap. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to the multiple-reviewer-plus-coordinators approach at FAC, the overall review quality is more consistent than with the single-reviewer approach for GANs, where there are no mechanisms to guard against particularly sloppy or overly picky reviews. —Kusma (talk) 14:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Good assessments above. Another major (actually, pace above, I would say possibly the most important, as the process rests on one of Wikip[edia's core principles) difference is that one is peer-reviewed, and a consensus on quality and standard is formed; the other is not. ——Serial Number 54129 13:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

And one more point: some MoS related issues are not required for GA but are required for FA. Similarly, GA citations can be inconsistent and badly formatted -- all that is required at GA is that the source can be reached via the citation. FAC requires consistency in source formatting. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I would also say that the image review and use of visuals is far more scrutinized in a FA as well. Alt text for the visually impaired or those without access to images is required on FA, as is the substantiation of an image if the information is not cited in the body. Licensing requires analysis, i.e. beyond checking that the licensing is appropriate, does it meet other requirements, licensed in both the US and country of origin, does it comply with "freedom of panorama" rules, if applicable, etc. Tables should be used sparingly in FA with thoughtfulness as to whether they are necessary or would be better presented as prose. FA also requires mindfulness on use of colors, if one must use a colored visual, is it in a spectrum that will be helpful and not cause confusion for the reader. SusunW (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Alt text for the visually impaired or those without access to images is NOT required on FA, though reviewers often ask for it. Johnbod (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Yep, rightly so. Any editor unwilling to spend a couple of providing ALTTEXT is basically fucking over our visually-imparired readers... who are often listeners, of course. Just tie it closer to MOS:ACCESS and be done with it. ——Serial Number 54129 14:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The main issue with alt text is that we only ask for the presence of some alt text, ignoring the question whether that alt text is of any use for a visually impaired reader. Opinion on what constitutes good alt text seems to vary widely (and depend on the image and context), so it is difficult to improve the situation without some dedicated alt text experts helping with reviews. —Kusma (talk) 15:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed - and the "dedicated alt text experts" don't seem to agree either, as we found out many years ago, when there was a big push on this, which then collapsed in the absence of agreement as to what was actually useful. Johnbod (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

"Many years ago", when accessibility was not deemed as important as it is now. Have the same discussion today, and you'll likely see very different results. I think there's a lot more resonance between access (a lack of) and in/direct discrimination. These are very serious issues for the WP community of 2024, even if they may not have been, or, gently, of such importance a decade earlier. ——Serial Number 54129 15:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

My take away from diversity training I have had is that alt text should describe the image to someone who cannot see it and not repeat the caption information, as both are read by a screen reader. For example on a wall mural with multiple images, I would use alt=painting on a wall caption=Mural depicting X, Y, Z on the fence outside the stadium in Timbucktoo, 2013. I literally just reviewed an article that had a map with alt=see caption and the caption=X's childhood home in Timbucktoo. To my eyes the alt is not remotely helpful. Doesn't say it is a map rather than a photograph of either the town or the actual house. And yes, totally in agreement, SN 54129. SusunW (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Definitely. I think there's some confusion about what alt text is actually supposed to be and I've seen people trying to conform it to the caption when in reality they serve very different and complementary purposes. I do think it's reasonable to suggest adding it back in as a featured article criteria but we should probably get some much clearer guidance and examples for editors to use as a guide before that. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Some alt text is easy. A text-based poster? Say what the text is. The difficult bit in my opinion is alt text for portraits, where I am unsure what information is needed. At Ulf Merbold (one of my FAs), the infobox image alt text is "Ulf Merbold wearing an orange spacesuit". Do we need to point out also that he is not wearing the helmet, that we can see his hair going grey, or that there is a model of a Space Shuttle in the background? Probably not all of them, but I would really like to have some guidance to follow. In particular, are there cases where "refer to caption" is a good alt text? —Kusma (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of this is covered at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Alternative text for images, both in terms of general guidelines and specific examples. - SchroCat (talk) 16:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that the examples there are the best we can do (the very first example is alt "Painting of Napoleon Bonaparte in His Study at the Tuileries" for an image with caption "The Emperor Napoleon in His Study at the Tuileries by Jacques-Louis David" which seems fairly redundant, and later there is alt "Refer to caption" for "Comparison of three different types of toothbrush", which at least could mention that they differ in bristle arrangement while all three are made of plastic). The examples in the table seem better. —Kusma (talk) 16:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you Kusma. A lot of what is in that essay is directly contradicted by training I have received. Its examples seem contrary and create redundancies, IMO. Barring better instruction, I use my best judgment on how would I describe an image to someone who cannot see it. (Who knew my observation on differences between GA and FA would generate so much discussion?) SusunW (talk) 17:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

2nd nom time?

Yo @FAC coordinators: apologies if this is premature, but my FAC finished up its prose reviews, and seems to just be sitting around until promotion. Would it be okay to begin a second FAC nom now? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Go right ahead. FrB.TG (talk) 19:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! :) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)