Talk:Montreal

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Former good articleMontreal was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 17, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
August 25, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
February 6, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
August 8, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 1, 2009Good article nomineeListed
January 24, 2023Good article reassessmentDelisted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 17, 2011, May 17, 2014, May 17, 2016, May 17, 2018, May 17, 2020, and May 17, 2022.
Current status: Delisted good article


Map showing Montreal in red[edit]

The map that shows the outline of Montreal is a bit misleading. When I first looked at it, I assumed the red area was all land. In fact, there are waterways running through it that I couldn't see until I zoomed into it. This made it very hard to identify Île Bizard or any other islands in the city, which is what I was looking for. A better map, which distinguishes between water and land, both in and out of the city, would be useful. I would do this myself, but I don't have the tools, don't know what tools would work, and don't know where I would get a starting-map. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 01:57, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2020 update to montage[edit]

plenty of discussions were made here with regards to the montage but they are all dated. Someone updated it with an image that was on the wikicommons, but someone deleted it without reason. We need to update the montage or at the very least the first picture of the skyline, as it is very outdated. A new one exists on the wikicommons, so why are we not using that?

132.205.236.34 (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I was thinking the montage could look something like this:

- 𝙄𝙠𝙤𝙣21 ❯❯❯ talk 06:01, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Montreal is the occitan translation of "Mont Royal".[edit]

The actual name of the city doesn't come from french but from occitan language. One of Cartier's officers, was precisely coming from Montreal in southern France. This is much more probable than an hypothetic italian origin. Montreal (and the reversed Réalmont) is a common toponym in southern France and unlike what is written in the article (although in 16th-century French the forms réal and royal were used interchangeably) in 16th century french Réal and Royal weren't interchangeable (hence Cartier speaking about the Mont Royal at first, renamed then by his fellow officer in his familial occitan form... I'll add that the first written occurency of Montreal in that form come from a gentilhomme from southern France Matieu Sokolovic (talk) 12:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pushpin location wrong[edit]

Pushpin location is showing Montreal being north of Rochester, NY and closer to Toronto. Montreal is actually north of Plattsburgh, NY and Lake Champlain. Push pin coordinates need to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.72.227 (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"T" in French?[edit]

Knowing next to nothing about Canadian French, a passage in the article Brigade-de-cuisine (John McPhee, in The New Yorker 1979 Feb. 19) made me curious enough to check this page's IPA:

Otto once tried to correct a captain’s pronunciation of “Montrachet.” He said, “Both ‘t’s are silent.”

The captain said, “No. One pronounces the first ‘t.’ ”

“Are you French-Canadian?” said Otto.

Was (the pseudonymous) Otto being facetious about canadiens or is there a syllable boundary issue in Montrachet? Sparafucil (talk) 01:21, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sustainability[edit]

I am adding a sustainability section. If anyone wishes to participate or help clean up and streamline other sections there is a discussion at the Canadian Wikipedians noticeboard regarding this project. It is a multi-city effort where we will be doing the same for other cities in Canada. TheKevlar 20:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Sustainability is not a section expected at community articles according to WP:CCSG. If you want to start doing this across Canadian communities, I suggest you start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian communities/Structure guideline and place a notice of said discussion here, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian communities, and at Wikipedia talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board to catch a wider audience. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation[edit]

Is this a joke? A user with no record of previously using this site randomly reverted my edit, citing a Wikipedia guideline that appears to exist only in his or her own imagination, and I am now supposed to waste my time reaching consensus? Is this meant to discourage occasional editors, who simply want to help out every now and then? Considering I had cited two very reliable sources, and no valid point had been made made to undermine my rationale, why on earth did you choose to revert my edit once again instead of, for instance, leaving it be until the hypothetical emergence of a cogent argument to question its soundness?

I apologise if I sometimes end up making personal attacks, but showing absolutely no respect for my time and the apparent lack of realisation that on the other side of the screen is a fellow human, from whose life you deduct with so little remorse, while not being a justification for my improper conduct, is the main reason behind it – and perhaps the foremost incentive for me to quit editing.

Since so far no case has been made whatsoever for retaining the current version of the article, I kindly appeal to @Nardog – a well respected editor – to help us resolve this issue. Maciuf (talk) 15:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you ask any Anglo-Montrealer, they will tell you that the “MUN” pronunciation is preferred, as you cited. Inputting the UK pronunciation will only confuse people. For many other articles regarding geographical locations, the correct, local pronunciation is provided so that if someone unfamiliar with the topic comes across the article, they will pronounce it correctly. I sincerely apologize if I offended you in any way, and that was in no way my intention. However, as a native of Montreal, I find it concerning that non-Montrealers might be inclined to pronounce the name of my home incorrectly. Thank you for your time.
Beeflermol (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
'Ask any Anglo-Montrealer' is not considered a reliable source. Nevertheless, if you haven't noticed, I did consider your input. I found a source (perhaps not of first-class reliability but fair enough) to support your claim and mentioned that most locals use the MUN pronunciation in a follow-up edit. The reason I put MUN before MON is exactly because it is the dominant local pronunciation and is also preferred by most Canadians. However, the alternative is listed in The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, and this article seems to suggest that Montrealers themselves use all sorts of variant pronunciations. I hope that clears things up a bit. Maciuf (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Maciuf, I'm afraid some of what you write is wrong, in tone as well as in content, but you also make relevant points. First, yes indeed, you are "supposed to waste your time reaching consensus". That applies to all of us. Second, no, the policy against edit warring does not exist "only in my imagination"; it is core policy of Wikipedia you might read here WP:EW. Third, when you are the one introducing a change that is reverted (by user Beeflermol in this case), the onus is on you to start the discussion. Fourth, in the content matter I am inclined to agree with you and would support your edit. I have read the concern by user Beeflermol above, but at the very least it would have to be sourced. I would support reinstating user Maciuf's version, which is properly sourced. Last but not least, to user Maciuf, I can understand your frustration that sometimes we make good and factual edits and are reverted. It happens to us all, whether we like it or not. Alas, being WP:RIGHT is not always enough on WP; when there is dispute, a consensus must be reached. That is why I restored the stable version (temporarily, waiting for a consensus) even though my own preference is for your version. Jeppiz (talk) 16:20, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I regret my irascibility. However, the 'Wikipedia guideline existing only in one's imagination' was a reference to Beeflermol's justification for reverting my edit, not WP:EW. And I simply do not feel any sensible line of reasoning has yet been put forth for me to argue against, hence my scepticism towards reaching consensus where there do not seem to be proper grounds for dispute. Thank you for your reply. Maciuf (talk) 17:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As an American-and-now-Anglo-Montrealer, to be fair, (anecdotally) the second pronunciation is quite common outside of Montreal generally (not just in the UK). I don't have access to the Canadian Oxford reference [1], could someone quote from there? (The Matador [2] cite, in my opinion, is not nearly strong enough and anyway only has passing mention of this.)
We need to lean on RS, not anecdotes, so... let's! What do the sources say? SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 01:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You ask what the reliable sources say. According to CEPD, it is UK: /mɒntriˈɔːl/, US: /mɒntriˈɔːl, mʌn-/, and you will find that this aligns perfectly with what you may find in British and American dictionaries respectively. But The Canadian Oxford Dictionary places /mʌn-/ before /mɒn-/, and I believe this practice ought to be followed within the article as concerning a Canadian city and – although I could not find a source of desired reliability to buttress that claim – it is almost certain that /mʌn-/ is indeed the local pronunciation. However, I still find it worthwhile to remark (within a footnote) on the infrequency of this variant in British English. Would you approve of the following revision of the opening paragraph? Maciuf (talk) 18:14, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Montreal (/ˌmʌntriˈɔːl/ ⓘ MUN-tree-AWL or /ˌmɒn-/ MON-;[note 1] officially Montréal, French: [mɔ̃ʁeal] ⓘ) is...

The following is more of a question than a critique. I am aware that you acknowledge the correct probounciafiom being “MUN”. So, my question is, Why? What is the purpose of putting the incorrect pronunciation? What good does it do, and who is it helping? All it would do is perpetuate the ever long mispronunciation of the city. Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Beeflermol (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would also like to address the Montreal Gazette article you mentioned. Yes, it does provide differing pronunciation, but those are by Montrealers of other ethnic groups whose ancestors spoke other languages. This Wikipedia article should only concern the English pronunciation (due to the article being written in English) and the French pronunciation (due to it being an official language of the city, province, and country). Thank you for your time.
Beeflermol (talk) 18:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would hesitate to make decisions here based on perception of "correct" and "incorrect" as a function of where people who pronounce things are from -- if there are two documented, common English pronunciations, I agree with the proposal to include both and add a note for "MON-". However I would amend the proposal as follows and drop the explicit UK reference; WP:SURPRISE tells us that the UK is not local, so it makes sense that UK people don't often say "MUN-":

Montreal (/ˌmʌntriˈɔːl/ ⓘ MUN-tree-AWL or /ˌmɒn-/ MON-;[note 2] officially Montréal, French: [mɔ̃ʁeal] ⓘ) is...

As mentioned above I would advise against the Matador cite for this, but overall I do agree with the approach to include both. (Again it'd be great if someone with access to the Canadian Oxford cite could quote from there, I can't WP:VERIFY that cite 😊). SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 19:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, your version seems preferable. Maciuf (talk) 19:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is I cannot find a good source which would state explicitly that MUN- is most common among locals. I do not have access to COD, but pronunciations are displayed on the website for free. Maciuf (talk) 19:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed 100% -- I would want good RS which explicitly has wording similar to the "local" above (Matador does this but really is not good enough for this use, it's passing mention). We shouldn't offer two pronunciations without an explanation, and without a good RS that has such explanation, I'd err on the side of waiting for one to be published before making this change. Best we have is this Gazette article [3] but it does not editorialize which "locals" specifically use more commonly. SiliconRed (he/him • talk) 20:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But you shouldn't exclude the MON- pronunciation just because you have no reliable sources to buttress the content of the footnote. The problem is that – being addressed to the general public – most sources I could find which discuss the issue refer to the MUN- pronunciation as simply correct instead of local. Maciuf (talk) 17:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly worth noting that MUN- being the local pronunciation is mentioned in List of shibboleths — but it's not cited there either! RacingThoughts (talk) 18:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ /ˌmʌn-/ MUN- for most locals.[1] Both pronunciations are used throughout Canada and the US, but in the UK, /ˌmʌn-/ MUN- is scarcely heard.[2][3]
  2. ^ Both pronunciations are popular, but /ˌmʌn-/ MUN- is most common for locals.[4][5]

References

  1. ^ Chan, Kimberley (3 February 2016). "23 Signs You Were Born and Raised in Montreal". Matador Network. Retrieved 1 October 2022.
  2. ^ Barber, Katherine, ed. (2004). "Montreal". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195418163.
  3. ^ Jones, Daniel (2011). Roach, Peter; Setter, Jane; Esling, John (eds.). "Montreal". Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-15255-6.
  4. ^ Barber, Katherine, ed. (2004). "Montreal". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195418163.
  5. ^ Jones, Daniel (2011). Roach, Peter; Setter, Jane; Esling, John (eds.). "Montreal". Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-15255-6.
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