Talk:Johann Joachim Winckelmann

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Untitled[edit]

As one would guess from a 1911 source, there is nothing about him being homosexual - which led to his murder.

The evidence of Winckelmann's homosexuality is substantial. His correspondence alone (over a thousand letters, many to confidantes) allows the scholar to document a life rich in friendship and love, supplemented by sexual encounters with Italian youths.

Winckelmann repeatedly acknowledges that he was never attracted to women. His sole affair with a woman occurred late in his life and under the most peculiar circumstances: The woman in question was Mengs's wife, the initiator Mengs himself.

Third-person accounts confirm the homosexual contours of Winckelmann's life. Perhaps the most interesting is that of Casanova, who claims to have caught Winckelmann in the act. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.141.61.48 (talk) 23:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As well as his correspondence. Frimoussou (talk) 02:16, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just because a man was homosexual and was murdered doesn't mean he was murdered in connection with his homosexuality. For this, the motive of robbery seems to remain the most logical explanation.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:A865:1FCA:DA8A:D95E (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Someone messed up some details of this page: 'he attended a meeting at the white house...'

now corrected

The writing in the article is absolutely appalling - somebody needs an editor. I'm doing some high-school research on Winckelmann and I really got very little from it. 1/10 wikipedia - I'm going to have to actually read some of his books now!

reply:internet gives information not knowledge.. go do your research....

Merging[edit]

Copied the other article's text, needs to be merged. --Matthead 05:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Changes, present & future[edit]

I've cleaned up some of the grammar (a lot of this article gives the impression of having been translated, and poorly, from a German source), deleted the theory that W.'s murderer was his "lover" (no longer seriously entertained -- a simple case of robbery), provided translation of a couple of Italian phrases, deleted digressions on David and the influence of Herculaneum & Pompeii on "taste," inserted reference to Goethe's Winkelmann und sein Jahrhundert in response to an earlier query, and inserted some queries of my own as "hidden comments." The most problematic entry at present is that on W.'s sexuality & lifestyle; i.e. what exactly is the relationship btw. W.'s asceticism and his sexuality supposed to be? I hesitate to delete this section altogether, since the question of W.'s sexuality is, for better or worse, a significant component of his later reception & present interest. But there is good, recent scholarship on the subject that has left no trace on the entry as it stands -- i.e. Alex Potts, Flesh and the ideal: Winckelmann and the origins of art history (New Haven, 1994); Whitney Davis, "Winckelmann's 'homosexual' teleologies," in N.B. Kampen, ed., Sexuality in ancient art (Cambridge, 1986); Whitney Davis, "Winckelmann divided: mourning the death of art history," in W. Davis, ed., Gay and lesbian studies in art history (New York, 1994). --Javits2000 11:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Took orders?[edit]

"...in 1754 Winckelmann joined the Roman Catholic Church". Was he a cleric of some kind, perhaps without consecration? I see in some French publications he is called "abbé" ("Lettre de M. l'abbé Winckelmann, antiquaire de Sa Sainteté, a monsieur le comte...") and an Italian text refers to him as "l'abate tedesco". Perhaps the entry could add a few words about this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo (talk • contribs) 08:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On the one hand, I haven't ever heard that (but then I read on the German wikipedia the suggestion that he might convert, suggested to him by the nuncio [to Saxony I guess] but only on the English one the statement that he actually did convert). That being said, judging only from intrinsical possibilities, he was 1. a Catholic who 2. had had some instruction in theology at the least, 3. was unmarried, 4. intended to stay that way (though not necessarily to bind himself by vow to do so) and 5. was in a somewhat important ecclesial office (though without cure of souls) - it is quite imaginable that such a one would be ordained up the way to acolyte (though not subdeacon).--2001:A61:260D:6E01:A865:1FCA:DA8A:D95E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:34, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That being said, it is just as imaginable that the French just took the suggestion "unmarried Catholic in the Pope's service" and said abbé without further ado, just as today the Germans say "doctor" without further ado to all physicians whether or not the possess the title. The Italians seem to have copied from them: Abbé is originally "abbot", then was used for the commendentary abbots appointed by the king who were not abbots, and then for all secular clergy including the lower one (many of whom had such titles). (To extend it to a Catholic unmarried layman in the Pope's service is thus not that far a stretch). Abate, in Italian, however, as far as I know still exclusively means an actual "abbot", which Winckelmann certainly was not; probably a mistranslation from a French source.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:A865:1FCA:DA8A:D95E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:41, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Winckelmann (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]