Talk:Siege of Leningrad

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Finns have great PR![edit]

There is nothing in the article that challenges the idea that Finland was engaged in a defensive war, which smacks of partiality. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:47F:FC8E:56FB:833F:34AC (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am seconding this. This is embarrassing whitewashing. For Russians, the treat of Finnish attach, and their blockade, was very much real and added to military (and civilian) hardship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.88.174.189 (talk) 01:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How near were the Finns to Leningrad?[edit]

This article says, 'Their headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad[51] and did not advance farther south from the Svir River in occupied East Karelia (160 kilometres northeast of Leningrad), which they had reached on 7 September." and then is says, "The proximity of the Finnish border – 33–35 km (21–22 mi) from downtown Leningrad – and the threat of a Finnish attack complicated the defence of the city." How far were the Finnish army from Leningrad? 2A02:8084:6A20:4600:D5A1:D2F2:FC6A:6AB3 (talk) 21:25, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Closest point was probably on shore of the Gulf of Finland at river Sestra (Rajajoki), essentially where the pre-Winter War Finnish-Soviet border had been. That front had remained static since September 1941 and trench warfare style conditions had begun. The reference about Svir river is about the linking up of the Finnish and German forces south of Svir which - if completed - would have created a second ring of envelopment around Leningrad. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Classification as a genocide[edit]

Apparently the Putin government has been working on the genocide charges recently, i.e.

A more detailed evaluation, with these recent developments, would be welcome in Siege_of_Leningrad#Genocide. Some of the sources cited talk about the Hunger Plan which isn't even mentioned here. 46.30.132.129 (talk) 12:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Leningrad[edit]

Why is this article not top of "Today in History" on the 27th of January 1944 ?! 172.56.34.34 (talk) 20:36, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because the section "Soviet relief of the siege" needs more references for verification. :3 F4U (they/it) 13:20, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

citation found ?[edit]

sorry if this is incoherent i am very very very high right now but under "Soviet relief of the siege" the Symphony no7 Leningrad concert is marked Citation Needed, the same concert is mentioned under Timeline>1942>9 August and it does have a citation [93]. i cant understand how to help edit but maybe that helps fix that citation 2600:1700:6870:3920:8B7:97F6:3598:9196 (talk) 15:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 11:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Leningrad → Blockade of Leningrad – I propose to rename the main article to the "Blockade of Leningrad" instead of redirecting because it`s widely known in Soviet and later Russian historiography as the "blockade" (Russian: Блокада Ленинграда). Besides, here in countries of the former Soviet Union every family call it the "blockade" not the "siege" (especially those who survived). As there are many archive documents written in Russian, it`s rare to meet the term "siege". It can be confusing for researchers. Borisenko-ru (talk) 13:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Borisenko-ru (talk) 05:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. The article is in English, and "Siege of Leningrad" is the commonly used name, not "Blockade of Leningrad". "A siege (Latin: sedere, lit. 'to sit')[1] is a military blockade of a city, or fortress, with the intent of conquering by attrition, or by well-prepared assault." This sounds applicable to the Siege of Leningrad, as described by the siege article. Betelgeuse X (talk) 05:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The WP:COMMONNAME in English reliable sources is the current title. As I mentioned at RM/TR, the name siege of Leningrad is I think well-attested in sources for this major historical event, and it leads the proposed title in book hits: [1]. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 06:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as the article name is a historical English name for the event and thus do not need to be a translation of the local name. Even so, as stated, it was specifically a siege and not a blockade in the common sense of the word. However, if the term "blockade" was some sort of propaganda devise of the Soviet state or similar then it can be worth to cover in the article.--Blockhaj (talk) 08:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Speaking of terms. The aim of a siege is to compel those who inside the city to surrender. The aim of a blockade is to destroy those who inside the city without a purpose to occupy it and setup local government. Besides it has been recognized as genocide by many historians[1][2][3][4][5] and by court [6] Borisenko-ru (talk) 07:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Bidlack, Richard; Lomagin, Nikita (2012). The Leningrad Blockade, 1941–1944: A New Documentary History from the Soviet Archives. Translated by Schwartz, Marian. Yale University Press. pp. 1, 36. ISBN 978-0300110296. JSTOR j.ctt5vm646. Next to the Holocaust, the Leningrad siege was the greatest act of genocide in Europe during the Second World War, because Germany, and to a lesser extent Finland, tried to bombard and starve Leningrad into submission. [...] The number of civilians who died from hunger, cold, and enemy bombardment within the blockaded territory or during and immediately following evacuation from it is reasonably estimated to be around 900,000.
  2. ^ Ganzenmüller 2005 p. 334
  3. ^ Hund, Wulf Dietmar; Koller, Christian; Zimmermann, Moshe (2011). Racisms Made in Germany. Münster: LIT Verlag. p. 25. ISBN 978-3-643-90125-5. Archived from the original on 18 January 2023. Retrieved 23 June 2020.
  4. ^ Vihavainen, Timo; Schrey-Vasara, Gabriele (2011). "Opfer, Täter, Betrachter: Finnland und die Leningrader Blockade". Osteuropa. 61 (8/9): 48–63. JSTOR 44936431.
  5. ^ Siegl, Elfie (2011). "Die doppelte Tragödie: Anna Reid über die Leningrader Blockade". Osteuropa. 61 (8/9): 358–363. JSTOR 44936455.
  6. ^ "Saint Petersburg court recognises Siege of Leningrad as genocide". Archived from the original on 2024-02-28.
Definitions differ between countries and agencies. In English a siege generally refers to a smaller area of effect like a city, village or even a single building, while blockade refers to a larger area of effect like a region, province or country. While Saint Petersburg is very large, it would still fall under siege and not blockade in common definition. Blockhaj (talk) 08:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, at the end of the day, sieges and blockades differes between events so neither term would be sufficient to explain the broader picture. It was a military blockade of a city (aka a siege), with the aim to kill off the majority of the russian population (a genocide). Blockhaj (talk) 08:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was a larger area. Borisenko-ru (talk) 08:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The borders are within the Leningrad suburbs, a siege doesn't have to strictly be the metropolitan area.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not here to support either side, but doesn't Glantz include the entire northern front as the "Battle of Leningrad" in his 2001 book? Reaper1945 (talk) 23:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, we follow the WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources not Russian. DankJae 08:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Whatever it's called in Russian, in English it's universally known as the siege. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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