Talk:Oresteia

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JEbberhart0, Bensonsmith, Taylormonti. Peer reviewers: Morenoj, Rcarlton98, Ash h, Rmerrill14.

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Comments

Basically it means 'entering the house..household..etc.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.36.133 (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please elaborate on Agamemnon 'entering the oikos?' After reading the definition of an oikos, I didn't understand how that fit in the sentence. I'm guessing it's a room? Thank you :]

The use of oikos is just a bit of wiki showoffery; it has no greater meaning than the English 'house'. I'd rather see some pedantry used on the line: "Eventually, for reasons that are still heavily debated, Clytemnestra does persuade Agamemnon to cross the purple tapestry to enter..." Any cite for this continuing heavy debate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.133.97 (talk) 03:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Anyone else think that Agamemnon (play), The Libation Bearers, and The Eumenides should be merged into this article? I think they might as well be like that, otherwise we have four stubby articles instead of one better article (in my opinion, anyway). The three parts aren't really comprehensible apart from each other...but I know other trilogies are split up (the Lord of the Rings trilogy for example). Adam Bishop 02:48, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea, at least at this stage where the articles are quite small as you said. - Hephaestos 02:54, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Ah, thanks...I was going to get around to doing that, I just didn't have time :) Adam Bishop 20:39, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

According to the Richmond Lattimore translation, Aegisthus is killed first. I hesitate to change this until someone confirms it. Mat334 03:13, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, if you've just read it in the play itself, you are welcome to change it! (I don't remember who dies when and I don't have my copy with me.) Adam Bishop 04:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe that Peter Meineck also produced a translation of the Oresteia. (1998, Hackett Publishing Company, Indianapolis, IN is the copy I'm holding. The ISBN is 0-87220-391-3.)

Shouldn't this page have a "Spoiler Alert" warning? Ramcharanr 22:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is extremely extensive and a lot of the summaries need to be cut down. The summaries are more like stories in themselves. I would suggest also adding in more themes, such as revenge. Also, in each of the sections of the Oresteia, I don't think there needs to be a seperate subsection for introduction and storyline, I think there just needs to be a short summary of the storyline. Taylormonti (talk) 21:40, 14 November 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

This summaries are far too long in length and need to be eliminated. Also, there are multiple sections on the page that do not need to be here. JEbberhart0 (talk) 00:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I added a couple of sentences into the subsection "Social progress and justice" as well as deleted a lot of sentences that were repetitive or simply not needed. I added another footnote in that leads to an article about politics in the Oresteia to back up most of my information that I added. I also deleted the Introduction paragraph under "The Libation Bearers" because there is no need for it when the stroyline is right there. Taylormonti (talk) 22:10, 20 November 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

I deleted the entire Proteus section because it did not add to the understanding of the trilogy. The summary section of Agamemnon has been almost totally remade. The base plot of the play was covered and I condensed the information I added. Lastly, I plan to slightly edit the Social Injustice section at the bottom of the page. JEbberhart0 (talk) 00:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC) JEbberhart0 (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I plan to remove the introduction section of Agamemnon and The Eumenides because it is the same at the storylines. I also plan to add some information in the “Social progress and justice” section, with information from Froma Zeitlin’s “The Motif of Corrupted Sacrifice in Aeschylus’ Oresteia.” Nisaa829 (talk) 01:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I added a few sentences to the subsection, "Social progress and justice" which looked at justice and revenge portrayed in the first play, Agamemnon, with reference to Froma Zeilit's The Motif of the Corrupted Sacrifice in Aeschylus' Oresteia.Nisaa829 (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I plan to get rid of the unnecessary information in the storyline and add more to the introduction of Agamemnon and The Eumenides. I also plan to add the other title for "Libation Bearers" which is "Choephori" to the article and place it in parenthesis. Bensonsmith (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I also want to get rid of the unnecessary information in the storyline for Libation Bearers and add a sufficient summary for that play to the article.Bensonsmith (talk) 03:30, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I will add some more information to the top of the article under The Oresteia in order to give a more effective overall summary and introduction to the book.Bensonsmith (talk) 03:42, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I added the other title "Choephoroi" to the subtItalic textitle "Libation Bearers." I also added a sentence to "The Eumenides" article with a new citation. Bensonsmith (talk) 04:52, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I added a new sentence to the introductory paragraph of the Oresteia. Bensonsmith (talk) 05:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Though i will go back to check my spelling and for grammatical errors, the Agamemnon section has been condensed and hyperlinks to important topic have been added. With the shortened summary the readers will be able to gather the same amount of information in a shorter time. JEbberhart0 (talk) 21:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I feel like the section under "The Eumenides" is excessive and could use a more reduced summary. Therefore I am going to replaced the information under that section with a shorter summary to it.Bensonsmith (talk) 01:52, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The Analysis and Theme section was a bit lengthy so I deleted the previous information and reduced it into a more direct summary. I also added a few sub-headings to make the information easier to understand.Bensonsmith (talk) 07:57, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I am going to redo the Libation Bearers summary because it is too long and does not really explain the plot well. Anyone who views the page and reads through all of that will walk away without really taking in anything relevant to the plot. After my alteration they will find it much more comprehensive. Also I am going to add a few important notes to the Justice through Revenge part that will relate it to the text and lessen the amount of critical thinking needed when interpreting the section. JEbberhart0 (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The information I added has been cited and checked for any grammatical/spelling errors. JEbberhart0 (talk) 01:34, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I added two new themes to the page, they are titled "Moral Responsibility" and "Revenge." Although the two themes of Justice through Retaliation and Revenge may seem similar, I feel that they both hold different aspects of the plays as important to each of them, and see the two as able to be considered entirely different. I also added in two hyperlinks to the pages "Moral Responsibility" and "Legal Responsibility" and added a footnote into the theme of moral responsibility. I felt that the two themes I added were important to the understanding of the Oresteia and how Aeschylus applies different concepts into his writing. Taylormonti (talk) 04:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

I felt that the section under Libation Bearers could have been rewritten. It had a few grammatical errors, could have been written simpler, and most of the information was not cited. Therefore I deleted the previous entry and added new information under the Libation Bearers section. Bensonsmith (talk) 18:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I used another source in order to further explain myself when writing about the curse of House Atreus. Here it is: Zeitlin, Froma I. “Postscript to Sacrificial Imagery in the Oresteia (Ag. 1235-37).” Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association, vol. 97, 1966, pp. 645–653. www.jstor.org/stable/2936034. Taylormonti (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

Idomeneo

Would it be appropriate to mention, in the section "The Oresteia in the arts and popular culture," that Mozart's opera Idomeneo features Electra as a major character? Really strange character, BTW. --Sylvia A 22:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Nah; Mozart's Elettra has, strictly, nothing to do with The Oresteia. She appears in Idomeneo because of the character's convenience as an intermeddler. Mozart needs a jealous, vengeful foreigner (Idomeneo orders Idamante to take her back to Argos) and Electra is a good fit. Speaking of fits, this seems to be (I can't think of anything earlier) the first instance of an Electra going mad (at the end of the opera). This is also an odd instance of Electra being the "bad guy," which is mostly due to the fact that this Electra isn't the canonical one of the Atreides legend.--Celloman2012 (talk) 14:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The Furies

I think the furies' wrath is a little more than annoying-- they're trying to kill orestese by sucking the blood from his body. I think there are several mistakes in general in the article about The Eumenides.

Wiki's article (under Storyline) contains two statements that don't seem to be supported anywhere in the text of the play (I don't know Greek, but they're not even hinted at in any of three translations: Lattimore, Morshead, Johnston.) One is that Athena renames the Furies the "Kindly Ones" (Eumenides). The other is: "Athena also declares that henceforth hung juries should result in the defendant being acquitted, as mercy should always take precedence over harshness." Does the play provide any basis for either of these statements?--Akstaris (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at http://records.viu.ca/~Johnstoi/aeschylus/aeschylus_eumenides.htm

I think the renaming is at 992. But I can see it being unclear there. My guess is the Greek there would use Eumenedis. Where else would the play's title come from?

The other must be around 950 in the same text, but the translation is not clear. Perhaps the sentences should be tagged with {{fact}} to solicit a more authoritative answer. (John User:Jwy talk) 23:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Harry Potter

I have removed the Harry Potter reference. It's solely an epigraph to one of the novels. --Tony Sidaway 00:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. I missed the forest for the trees there. What about the other references in this article? Are some of them borderline as well? Do you feel like pruning them if they feel excessively frivolous or tangential? Carcharoth 03:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah. I see the article has a history. I should have checked before changing motto to epigraph. Carcharoth 03:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The quote keeps coming back in, but the references are interesting, so I'll put them here in case anything comes of them: here and here. Carcharoth 13:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Bouguereau painting title?

To my knowledge, it's Orestes wird von den Furien verfolgt "Orestes pursued by the Furies." Ifnkovhg (talk) 08:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The Libation Bearers

What is the correct alternate name for The Libation Bearers? I've seen translations using Choephoroe, Choephorae, and Choephori. Thanks in anticipation. - Mtmelendez ^(Talk) 13:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The first one is (in my experience) most common; sometimes you'll find the ending -oi. The second one is new to me, but the feminine ending is appropriate seeing as how the chorus is made up of female slaves. Ifnkovhg (talk) 01:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 18:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The Oresteia → Oresteia — As far as I know, the name of the trilogy of plays is the Oresteia — always with the article, never just Oresteia — but the article is not part of the title of the trilogy. ("Aeschylus wrote the Oresteia", not "Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia".) It's like "the White House". If that's correct, then this page should be moved to the article-less form: Oresteia, rather than The Oresteia. See WP:THE. --Quuxplusone (talk) 04:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Unconvinced There is a distinction of idiom. We say "Aeschylus wrote the Oresteia"; but we do not say "Milton wrote the "Paradise Lost". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
  • See WP:THE. We also say "The Pleiades is a constellation"; "the President of the United States lives in the White House"; and so on. --Quuxplusone (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. We say that Pope wrote the Dunciad (which, sadly, I see is at The Dunciad despite the visual evidence given in that article, and the fact that we don't say "Pope's The Dunciad"); we say that Euripides wrote the Medea; we speak of the Odyssey and the Iliad; and it is common, at least in classical scholarship, to write about the Oresteia. (Note that "the" is outside the italics there.) One example comes from Simon Goldhill, Language, Sexuality, Narrative: the Oresteia (Cambridge, 1984): "What is to follow is a reading of the Oresteia... I'm sure I can come up with more examples if needed, as this seems to be entirely normal usage here.

The presence or absence of the definite article is determined by whether the proper noun is strong or weak (see [1]), and I would argue that the names of most ancient literary works are weak proper nouns, based on the usage I've seen in secondary sources. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The painting "Murder of Agamemnon"

The painting shows Clytemnestra hesitating and planning to kill the man in bed. Neither happen in the play. Is there a better illustration of the play? (John User:Jwy talk) 16:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Influence and importance

This article does not include, in the introduction, any indication of the importance of this work. This is more of a scholarly analysis of the play, rather than a encyclopedic survey.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC) This article is written too colloquially. It needs major reworking —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.254 (talk) 02:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Manuscript discussion?

I think this article really needs a discussion of the manuscript transmission of these plays. I think they're all Byzantine and I remember reading that the "Libation Bearers" came down to us in only one manuscript (maybe belonging to the Medici?) but this is really not my field. It would be great if someone more knowledgeable could contribute. Iphthime (talk) 20:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Sources

Euben, J. Peter (1982). "Justice and the Oresteia". The American Political Science Review. 76: 22–33 JEbberhart0 (talk) 01:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Burke, Kenneth (1952). “Form and Persecution in the Oresteia”. The Sewanee Review. 20, 3: 377-396 JEbberhart0 (talk) 23:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Trousdell, Richard (2008). “Tragedy and Transformation: The Oresteia of Aeschylus”. Jung Journal: Culture and Psyche. 2, 3: 5-38 JEbberhart0 (talk) 23:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Sources to add: Cunningham, Maurice P. “Didactic Purpose in the Oresteia.” Classical Philology, vol. 45, no. 3, 1950, pp. 183–185. ; Griffith, R. Drew. “Disrobing in the Oresteia.” The Classical Quarterly, vol. 38, no. 2, 1988, pp. 552–554 ; MacLeod, C. W. “Politics and the Oresteia.” The Journal of Hellenic Studies, vol. 102, 1982, pp. 124–144. Taylormonti (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

Zeitlin, Froma I. “The Motif of the Corrupted Sacrifice in Aeschylus' Oresteia.” Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association, vol. 96, 1965, pp. 463–508. Nisaa829 (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The Dynamics of Misogyny: Myth and Mythmaking in the "Oresteia" Zeitlin, Froma I Arethusa; Spring 1978; 11, 1; ProQuest pg. 149-184. Nisaa829 (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Hammond, N. G. L. “Personal Freedom and Its Limitations in the Oresteia.” The Journal of Hellenic Studies, vol. 85, 1965, pp. 42–55. Nisaa829 (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Sommerstein, Alan H. “Notes of the Oresteia.” Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies, No. 27 (1980), pp. 63-75. Bensonsmith (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Thomson, George. “Notes of the Oresteia.” The Classical Quarterly, vol. 28, No. 2 (Apr., 1934), pp. 72-78. Bensonsmith (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Whallon, William. “Maenadism in The Oresteia.” Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, vol. 68 (1964), pp. 317-327.Bensonsmith (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Porter, David. "Aeschylus' 'Eumenides': Some Contrapuntal Lines." The American Journal of Philology, vol. 126, No. 3 (Autumn, 2005), pp. 301-331. Bensonsmith (talk) 04:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to add in a section discussing play's relation to the curse of House Atreus, as I think it's an important part of grasping at a deeper understanding of the play's tradegy. There will be some background involved, explanation of the curse itself, and it's relation to the characters in "The Oresteia." Taylormonti (talk) 21:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)Taylormonti

One or two lines of Proteus are left?

82.177.40.11 (talk) 11:54, 31 August 2018 (UTC)