Talk:Midshipman

Other nautical references to "Midshipman"

• MIDSHIPMAN'S NUTS. Broken pieces of biscuit as dessert. (Smyth William Henry: The Sailor's Word-Book: An Alphabetical Digest of Nautical Terms, including Some More Especially Military and Scientific, but Useful to Seamen; as well as Archaisms of Early Voyagers, etc., 1867. Blackie & Co, Glasgow)
• MIDSHIPMAN'S ROLL. A slovenly method of rolling up a hammock transversely, and lashing it endways by one clue (Smyth)
• MIDSHIPMAN'S HITCH. An alternative to the Blackwall Hitch, preferred if the rope is greasy. Made by first forming a Blackwell hitch and then taking the underneath part and placing over the bill of the hook.(Admirilaty Manual of Seamnship Vol I, HMSO, London, 1964)

Farawayman (talk) 08:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• • I added these to the nautical terms article. Kirk (talk) 14:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Russian Michman

There was also an Imperial Russian equivalent michman (Мичман)~(I have np sources apart from Ru-Wiki, so I won't add it). Pibwl ←« 10:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Good point - I've actually removed the references to the Russian Midshipman, for two reasons; as of December 1, 2009, the rank will be phased out in the Russian Navy, and the usage I can find for that rank was as of warrant officer, not an apprentice or cadet officer. The term itself is so close to Midshipman but dictionaries translate it to Warrant Officer, so I put the links there; if you can translate Ru-Wiki, please put it there! Thanks! Kirk (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Midshipman/Naval Cadet

I tried to find information about Japanese Midshipmen or their equivalent; if you know Japanese and can add that information to this article, that would be helpful. Kirk (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC) Looks like was: 海軍少尉候補生 Kaigun Shōi Kōhōsei, but that was in the Imperial Japanese Navy.Kirk (talk) 18:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The term Officer Cadet in the USN

Since this gets changed frequently I probably should mention this - if there's some reason the USN doesn't want its midshipmen to be generalized as 'cadets', please add a source. The sports rivalry with West Point probably plays a part, but multiple dictionary definitions for midshipman use the word 'cadet', and the definition of cadet is a student at a service academy. Kirk (talk) 13:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

What on earth is OF(D) and why is Midshipman classed as it?

Having been a Mid RN, I have never heard of OF(D). It is true that until a few years ago Midshipman were not commissioned, making them junior to 2Lts and POs, however this was changed in 2007/08 (I can't remember the exact timing off the top of my head but will look up the original notice when I am next able). Especially under the new training pipeline which is described extremely well in the article, there is no reason why a Midshipman ranks below 2Lt and PO. Anyone know?--Noofworm (talk) 01:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• OF(D) stands for Officer Designate which is a term used in a lot of comparative rank wikipedia articles but I've never found a reference for it in a credible source such as the NATO documentation, and my fact tags are still in that article. I did a quick browse; a lot of those articles have RN Mids in the wrong category, they should be OF 1. The junior to 2lts and POs comes from STANAG 2116 which references the Queen's Regulation section J 0181 probably from 1989. I can't find the current regulations - maybe you can find it and reference it in the article? Kirk (talk) 12:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I can quickly find online is http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/PersonnelPublications/Pensions/PensionCodes/TableOfNatoRanks.htm which certainly shows mids as OF1, but isn't very clear on their relative seniority versus the lowest ranks in other services (you'll need to follow the link to an MS Word doc). David Underdown (talk) 13:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that confirms what I thought. Officer Cadet in the RN would fit in with OF(D), not Midshipman as it is a commissioned rank and so OF1. The Officer Designate article actually says Acting Pilot Officer is OD(D) too, which confuses matters even more. APO is down as OF1 on the APO page. --Noofworm (talk) 00:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Wrong info

"In many Romance languages, the literal translation of the local term for "midshipman" into English is "Navy Guard", including the French garde marine, Spanish guardia marina, Portuguese guarda-marinha, and Italian guardiamarina."

This is completely wrong! First the translation is not a translation but just the names of comparative ranks within the NATO navies as stated by the STANAG 2116 agreement (This agreement is producing a lot of mistakes, expecially here in wikipedia: i.e. → the English term "ensign" means → alfiere in Italian, → alférez in Spanish, → Fähnrich in German, but in Italy we have no alfiere [ensign] rank in the Navy, so translating ensign as guardiamarina and midshpman as aspirante guardiamarina its a huge mistake!!! ...if you want to read the story of the rank name guardiamarina let me redirect you to have a look of the English page Gardes de la Marine → Eng. lit. "guards of the navy" → "navy guard" .)

The term midshpman probably should be translated with the Italian word mezzomarinaro (half-sailor, probably due its age and small height) who is the translation from the latin mesonauta and from the late greek terms μεσοναύτης. This term in the past was indicating what now is called mozzo, (a young boy who is at least 15 year old and has less than 24 months of navigation) from the Spanish mozo (Catalan: mosso, French: mousse). Today the term mezzomarinaio is indicating what in English is called pike pole or cant hook.

Reference is Treccani, the best Italian Encyclopedia.

Anyway you can find a info on this dictionary [1]. --Nicola Romani (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

• I referenced the Oxford Italian-English dictionary, which says midshipmen are guardiamarina in the british navy, or 'allievo dell’accademia navale' in the US Navy (I'll change that - it changed in the dictionary!), but Midshipman is a split rank in the British navy which bridges a officer cadet and a junior comissioned officer. The US Navy has officer cadets who become ensigns as junior commissioned officers & I think its an accurate translation from a credible source & I'll reword the italian parts to clarify this. The point of using the STANAG 2116 definitions is to give a way to know relative ranks which it does well in my opinion - it might be wrong but you need to give me a source that says its wrong.

• RE: mezzomarinaro, midshipmen weren't boy sailors, they were officer candidates - it was very important class distinction that midshipmen were gentlemen not sailors and in the Italian navy there would be a stronger link to the monarchy, hence guardiamarina. Kirk (talk) 02:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

my RE: STANAG is the NATO abbreviation for Standardization Agreement, which set up processes, procedures, terms, and conditions for common military or technical procedures or equipment between the member countries of the alliance.

Here, you can read that STANAG 2116 is just the "NATO Codes for Grades of Military Personnel" so not the official translation of ranks among the NATO armed Forces but it covers, among other subjects, NATO official rank grade comparisons. We have first to respect the history background of each country. Let me give you a simple example, in Italy we have the rank of "capitano di vascello", this terms also belong to many other world navies history and came from the french capitaine de vaisseau at the time of the age of sail. Nowadays in Germany the NATO comparative rank is Kapitän zur See but once, at the time of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, when Italy was member of the Triple Alliance (1882) was existing the rank of Linienschiffskapitän and on the same time in the Imperial German Navy the rank of Kapitän zur See who is, as stated before, still a rank of the German Navy. During the age of sail and the wars between England and France, english speaking people stared to translate the french term capitaine de frégate as "Frigate Captain" even if they have the term "Commander" [2].

I'm familiar with this, but I don't know what it has to do with 'wrong info' in STANAG 2116 relative to Midshipmen. Kirk (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

So the term "midshipman" is not a literal translation but just a comparisons with "aspirante guardiamarina". --Nicola Romani (talk) 08:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Correct - this article is about an English word which other users felt needed to summarize ranks in other countries which are similar to midshipmen. The article doesn't not need to have a complete list of every nations and language both modern and historic which have a word which could be translated to midshipman - that would make a very long article! Most navies have a naval cadet rank, so whatever that is like a pre-fleet board UK midshipman or a US midshipman. Russia specifically had a rank which looks like 'midshipman' in English but its been phased out and the translation was to 'warrant officer' so I didn't include it. I would like to include China, Russia and Japan in the list since those navies are very important today, but I do not know those languages. Kirk (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Midshipman and its etymology

Ciao to everyone, yesterday searching some terms on various English dictionaries I've found that the first known use of "amidship" is dated 1662. "Midship" is dated 1779, "shipman" is used since before 12th century, and "midshipman"... so remembering the latin word "mesonauta" (meso = mid - nauta = shipman) I've found this: [3]. --Nicola Romani (talk) 11:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Bangladeshi Midshipmen

Since I've deleted this section twice I thought I should clarify my reasons for the anonymous editors who keep doing this. If you want to add something, that's fine but you need to add a citation from a reputable source; please, don't just copy the Pakastani paragraph and delete its citations. Thanks! Kirk (talk)—Preceding undated comment added 19:44, 26 March 2012‎ (UTC)

Oberfähnrich zur See

I removed the see also for Oberfähnrich zur See since it was not accurate, and there really isn't a call for highlighting one rank in a language over others. As I've noted above and in the article, when you think of a 'Midshipman' in another languages must consider how the word was used historically, and how the word is used today in relation to the training of commissioned officers. Dictionaries do have literal translations to a single equivalent noun or phrase which makes comparison very difficult at best. Kirk (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits

I reverted the recent changes to the lead and the other countries sections. The lead was pretty meticulously reviewed during the FA process but if there's a reason for a wholesale deletion of two paragraphs please discuss it here.

The other countries section has been subject to a few edits since the FA review, because (as I've said in the article and above), when you think of a 'Midshipman' in another languages must consider how the word was used historically, and how the word is used today in relation to the training of commissioned officers, which I think I provided when I wrote that section (again, reviewed multiple times for FA). So you can't just link out to a word that a dictionary chooses to literally translate to Midshipman and delete the context.

I agree michman (Мичман) should be in here but it needs some sources before you add it to the article, and it needs to explain the context of the rank outside of a single sentence - the original query from 2009 is summarized above, and I didn't see your changes as an improvement. Kirk (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

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Second para

In the 17th century, a midshipman was a rating for an experienced seaman...

Should that be or?--Jack Upland (talk) 23:54, 18 December 2019 (UTC)