Talk:Stutthof concentration camp

Untitled

Gerdenau: I have no idea what is the real name of this camp and where it is located. It wasn't mentioned here: List of Martyrology Sites in Poland Cautious 12:34, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe they confused this: 21) Przebrno (Pröbernau) Cautious 12:37, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Rachel Gordon made known to me that she was victimized during a visit from the Angel of Death, Dr Mengele, having both breasts removed as experiments. She said she sought revenge and upon learning Commandant Hope was assigned to the Eastern Front, used her position as a seamstress to insert needles in the vertical stripes of his uniform pants and the arms and sleeves of his uniform coat. There is in existence a medallion made by 26 ladies who survived these atrocities, including the death march. I posses 1.

Death Toll

Does anyone have a better source for the death toll than jewishgen.com?

Images

I have written a request to the Stutthof Museum, requesting permission for imagesPedant 05:14, 2004 Oct 31 (UTC)

Jews or Polish activists

According to the Museum, the September 1939 arrestations were oriented against Polish activists in Danzig. What is your source about the Jews? Xx236 11:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Soap?

Once again the infomation concerning German production of soap from human fat is introduced into this encyclopedia article with a reference from a magazine article. Virtually all reliable academic sources, and in particular most Jewish Holocaust researchers have debunked this "myth" as being not true. It is necessary to understand the importance of this. It is by no means to "whitewash" the atrocities commitited by the nazis at these camps, but rather to distinguish fact from fiction, so as not to give credence and "ammunition" to deniers of actual atrocities. The external link to the Virtual Jewish Library, following the article about this concentration camp, Stutthof, better explains this position. The claim and its source should be taken out of the article, with the "new Breaking News", staying in tabloids rather than in an encyclopedia. Dr. Dan 16:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, the samples of the soap found have been recently chemically tested, and the tests confirmed that the soap made by Spanner was from human fat. These are scientifically proven facts, not a "tabloid fiction". The investigation concluded in 2006 [1] --Lysy^talk 16:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my assertions, and add that DNA tests excluded human DNA in all presented samples. Believe what you want, but as I stated in my above remarks (as does the Virtual Jewish Library "link"), that presenting this "re-discovered" evidence has more inherent risks than benefits. In this case it doen't help the credibility of the IPN either. Dr. Dan 17:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

And would you have any refs to support your claims? Or is it just an attempt at Holocaust denial?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Funny that the author of Zydokomuna would try to link me with holocaust denial, after a very detailed explanation by me as to what my objection to including this (referenced from a tabloid magazine) information in this article was. The references from the Virtual Jewish Library are available and more respectable than the tygodnik article. Dr. Dan 20:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, please bear with me but I'm not getting your point. The recent 4 year investigation by IPN confirmed that the soap was made of human fat. It has not been officially confirmed until 2006. Why are you doubting it please ? --Lysy^talk 21:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bear with me back. It has been investigated and debunked. Jewish organizations dealing with Holocaust research have backed-off of these claims for the reasons I have stated very succinctly. This Breaking News presented to us from some tabloid doesn't change the reality of the myth and its origins. One should hope that such a revelation should make world-wide news coverage, but it hasn't and isn't about too. Unfortunately the chain of custody would make any claim out of Poland suspect at this point regardless of the evidence compiled by the IPN. Please note that I did not remove the claim, but cautioned those interested in the subject to be careful. People will always believe what they want to anyway. Dr. Dan 21:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You lost me again. Are you calling IPN a "tabloid" ? And what "tygodnik" ? And who and when debunked this ? BTW: I found this press release of October 2006 by Polish Press Agency at the official Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum site. Hope this clarifies it. --Lysy^talk 22:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry you got lost. Seriously, if you re-read my above comments, I stand by them and for now have no intention of changing my opinion based on the information provided. As I have stated, people will believe what they want to regardless of what we say here. I think that pretty much does it for me on the subject. Thanks for the Polish article, it was an interesting read. But it doesn't help anyone who doesn't understand it. And keep in mind these discussions are for the benefit of everyone, not just you and me. Dr. Dan 20:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I had provided two links [2] and [3] (both in Polish, obviously). Hopefully IPN will publish the results of its investigation in English one day. But frankly, that something is not in English does not mean it is less credible. Unlike many other disciplines, history sadly does not use English as its primary language. Most of the historiography of Eastern Europe is not available in English, I'm sure you will agree. --Lysy^talk 20:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but in English Wikipedia, English is the Lingua franca, sadly or not sadly. Dr. Dan 22:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, would you object sources in the Lithuanian language, then ? --Lysy^talk 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

By no means, all I want is such references to be translated into English. Does that seem unreasonable? Hmm? Dr. Dan 23:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, the Auschwitz site has an English version of the 'Human Fat Was Used to Produce Soap' page here. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Squiddy, thanks for the translation. It may be of some use to those who are reading this discussion for the first time. I have already read it in Polish, and this Breaking News from October, simply didn't cut it, and make the headlines it should have. The information, the opinions, the new witnesses, et al. are there for the record. Just doesn't cut it though. Thanks anyway. Dr. Dan 01:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Everyone involved here might be interested to know that Wikipedia already has an article devoted to this subject, under Jewish soap legend. That would be a more appropriate place to continue this discussion. An extensive discussion of the IPN report (in English), specifically debating the credibility of IPN, is available here. As for news coverage, the story was reported by AFP ([4]) and DPA ([5]). Balcer 15:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

This article makes a bold and very controversial assertion, one that goes against mountains of testimony and evidence, using only a couple random sources as evidence - which themselves depend upon one Polish-language source. Perhaps this is a reputable source, perhaps it is not. For readers of the English Wikipedia, this is difficult to ascertain. What is easy to tell, however, is that this one source a lone voice, completely outnumbered by sources that explicitly state the complete opposite. A statement of this sort requires far, far more than one citation to justify its inclusion in an encyclopedia article. It's stunning how eager some "contributors" are to embrace this idea. The fact that we still have to argue about 65+ year old propaganda, that has long been debunked, is pathetic. Udibi (talk) 07:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The soap section of this article is self contradictory (as to the location of the fat lab/"factory") and presents an unproven premise (that soap was made from the fat of concentration camp prisoners). The sole Polish article on the subject places the location of the lab somewhere away from the camp. The human fat, said to be present in the sample(s) tested, is not attributable (through DNA or other methods) to camp prisoners. Other stated sources of human remains (in the polish museum article) are said to be an institute for the insane, and a local prison (not the camp). The polish museum article also asserts that total production was somewhere between 50-100kg (which might be a quantity from a laboratory experiment, but not a factory), that it smelled terrible, and use was limited to cleaning up an autopsy room. The African tabloid (circulation 30,000) article is not authoritative on this issue. Given the total lack of numerous credible sources supporting this sensational claim, and numerous credible sources which debunk the claim (including "most Jewish Holocaust researchers" as stated by Dr. Dan), this section is highly suspect... and should not be included in this article until better (credible) and more numerous sources can be obtained. It is little more than a dubious "claim", and should not presented as fact. I suggest deleting this section until (or if) it can be better supported. Gulbenk (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

the following was previously posted under the heading SOAP (2)

• User:Dr. Dan (mentioned by you, Gulbenk) posted his comment on 21 February 2007 (UTC), that's eight years (!) and nine months ago. Please learn WP:TALK policy guidelines before posting anything next time. Thanks. Section blanking and removal of reliable third party sources is generally considered disruptive. The archived page is available at Wayback, and it clearly states that the corpses used in the experiments were obtained from Kocborów, Królewiec, and — despite Spanner's categorical denials — the Stutthof death camp. Poeticbent talk 19:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Poeticbent for your interest and contribution to this article. Contrary to your comments, there appears to be no reason to start a new heading under SOAP (2) since WP:TALK states: Before starting a new discussion ensure there is not already an existing section on the same topic. Duplicating the same discussion in multiple sections on a talk page causes confusion, erodes general awareness of points being made, and disrupts the flow of conversation on the topic. I do not see a statement that the passage of time invalidates comments. Would you be so kind to point that out to me? I should also point out that my edit was not a form of vandalism (section blanking) as you have stated, but the removal of highly questionable material. The source, a Polish museum, uses questionable methodology to supported unproved assertions, and is almost universally disputed by credible sources. Gulbenk (talk) 00:19, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

werner hoppe

The link for Werner Hoppe leads to a different Werner Hoppe than the one from Stutthoff camp. Perhaps someone can look into this.

Thanks, I've changed the link to Werner Hoppe (Stutthof guard), as the Werner Hoppe page is a redirect to members of the Baader-Meinhof gang. The link on this page is now red. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 18:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Deportation of non-nazi Germans

Günter Grass seems to say in his latest book that Germans from Danzig that got arrested for anti-nazi behaviours (such as listening to British radio, showing "degenerate art" to students, being a socialist, doubting the successes of the German armies...) were sent to Stutthof. Is this correct? If so, the article should note it. David.Monniaux (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

ANSWER: Firstly, Gdansk inhabitants were not Germans. Gdansk was an independent city and its inhabitans were in general German-speaking (since middleages), but not Germans! Whatsmore Gdansk from 1466 to 1793 belonged to Poland(in 1793 Poland stopped existing). So Gdansk's inhabitants were generally against nasizm and Hitler, as he took the independence od Free City of Danzig. Therefore, it is obvious that they were also arrested and kept in Stutthof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.78.176.25 (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This "Answer" spells out perfectly what is terribly wrong with most Wikipedia articles having anything to do with anything vaguely about Poland. A bunch of brazen, adolescent nationalists have defiled Wikipedia and undermined its credibility with their blatant nationalism and revisionist history. They do us all a disservice. Udibi (talk) 07:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Fritz Peters

Fritz Peters (one of the Stutthof officials who is listed as having been executed in the second trial) currently links to a Frederick Thornton Peters who was a Canadian recipient of the Victoria Cross. Perhaps someone could have a look at this? (Wandora (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

Intelligentsia

There is no credible document or policy of the German Government to round up and murder the Polish intelligentsia. This simply a fantasy of Polish nationalists with their "Poland the victim" culture. Anyone, of any description, found to be troublemakers, seditionists, etc were rounded up by the Germans and sent to re-education and work camps. The OTT descriptions in this article are frankly ridiculous. The SOVIETS certainly rounded up the so-called intelligentsia and aristocracy and there is a mountain of evidence on this.2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:857:B9F7:84B4:42E8 (talk) 21:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The Polish version

Where is the Polish version of this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.192.56.98 (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

See the interwiki on the left in the article mode. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Soap production from the bodies of victims

User:Buidhe, can you explain re [6] why you decided to remove the section instead of removing individual problematic sources or tagging them with {{unreliable source}}? I am confused why this book (Denying History) by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman is deemed unreliable, or Alexander Werth's Russia at War, or the Auschwitz museum page ([7])? The section can use improvement, but I don't think it merits a WP:TNT-like approach. The only questionable source I see is this news piece - but it merits only being tagged or replaced with a citation needed template. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Shermer and Grobman are fine, but I don't think that sources from 50 years ago can be counted as generally reliable, given that not all of that historiography has stood the test of time, and the Auschwitz museum is just quoting PAP which does not meet POLANDRS. Please find some peer-reviewed, scholarly sources for these claims. (t · c) buidhe 02:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

According to a paper in German Studies Review the soap claims are mostly "a popular Polish anti-German stereotype" (Neander, Joachim (2006). "The Danzig Soap Case: Facts and Legends around "Professor Spanner" and the Danzig Anatomic Institute 1944-1945" (PDF). German Studies Review. 29 (1): 63–86.) and were at most a misdemeanor, not a crime. WP:DUE should also be considered. (t · c) buidhe 02:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Having looked into some sources (I am not finished) I concur this section needs a rewrite, with better sources like the one I added and you cite above, and others. But the incident is notable and the section should remain, albeit again, it may need further rewriting. There's also an article about Soap made from human corpses we should look at too. Please feel free to rewrite the section and improve the sources. PS. I am concerned whether Stołyhwo's research was ever published in any peer-reviewed outlet? It is mentioned by Drobnicki at [8] but I can't even see it was cited much. PPS. I am also looking for official statements by IPN. There's one from 2004 here: [9], but in 2006 there are only media statements, here's one reprinted on IPN pages: [10]. In 2010 IPN scholars published a book on this: [11]/[12]/[13]/[14]. Some further reading: [15]/[16]. Overall I think the conclusion is that there was no mass production (scholars clearly conclude it was a myth), and it's possibly but not possible to fully prove there was small-scale production (experimental/for lab purposes).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:52, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

In terms of Stutthof itself the soap allegations are pretty minor footnote and should not be exaggerated. For example, it isn't mentioned at all in the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos entry on Stutthof. (t · c) buidhe 03:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Yet another example of how incomplete that Encyclopedia is. That said, I do agree this should not be exaggerated. Ping User:MyMoloboaccount - please join the discussion here. Also, Molobo, can you pretty please learn how to format references using cite templates? You have been here for a decade+, using this tool is pretty easy, just paste Google Book link there and copy the generated code. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Err, actually, according to our policy, WP:TERTIARY sources should be used to determine due weight. But you might as well look at overviews of Stutthof to see how much weight it is given there. Or perhaps the right question to ask is that, in light of the fact that more than 60,000 people perished, how much weight to give to the possible fate of a handful of them is. Furthermore, since this aspect is greatly exaggerated by postwar accounts, then it should perhaps be covered in a section dealing with postwar memorialization. (t · c) buidhe 08:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

The soap production has been confirmed by IPN investigation in October 2006. Neander(who describes himself as "freelance historian") published his paper in February 2006, so before conclusion of IPN investigation(for the record his paper is strongly political and seems to wander off into how Poles "demonize" Nazi Spanner, and defence of Erika Steinbach, a controversial political figure).The PAP statement is fine as it refers to events in 2006, well past WW2--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 04:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that IPN's conclusion from 2006 does not seem to have been peer reviewed - can you find anything better than media reports on the press conference? See links above. I think the best source is the 2010 book by Monika Tomkiewicz and Piotr Semków and they don't seem to support anything about soap production beyond some experiments, and they also don't support claims that Spanner was much involved in this. I am still reading sources and it will take me days (there are also some newer academic works). But what I have read so far does suggest that some older claims about 'factory' and such are likely an unsubstantiated myth. Even IPN talked about this being a small scale process. PS. Thank you for finding and sharing the chapter by Shallcross, it seems relevant. It may take me few days to read all the sources listed here, and likely, more exists. Shame the 2010 book is unlikely to be available online :( --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:38, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I think the best source is the 2010 book by Monika Tomkiewicz and Piotr Semków

I can have the book within 1-2 weeks, provided it is an accepted to be acceptable source to use here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 04:56, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it is. User:Buidhe, would you care to comment on its reliability, for future use? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on that question, but I do think that adding a bunch of information from this book is likely to be WP:UNDUE (see above). (t · c) buidhe 10:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Only a summary should be here, this topic has a stand-alone article at Soap made from human corpses. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:37, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

sing this tool is pretty easy, If you consider this easy, I can't fathom what you consider hard.The screen immediately caused me a headache.Unfortunately not all of us are IT developers and can code.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 04:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Paste, click generate,copy paste code into wiki, it's literally few seconds. Sure, it may take a minute to use at first. You can also just use automatic citation generation in Visual Editor, but it doesn't seem to pick up pages from Google Books, so I prefer the reftag tool, it literally takes 5 seconds to generate a useful book cite with it that's well formatted and has the pageview url. Trust me, it is worth learning how to use it, and it won't take you more than few minutes at most to do so. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:40, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

geneaology site not peer reviewed

References