Talk:Bosporus

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Biblical Refs[edit]

In the text just below from the refs section:

The poster quoted the three different versions of The Bible it seems in order to provide a more full insight into the biblical reference at note five. The external link seems sufficient. The other classical literature references (1-4) above do not include extensive quotations from their sourced documents. It seems more consistent to use only the external link. (The link works great and directs a user to exactly the passages quoted.)

    • And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. (KJV)
    • And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel, all the places of the Chanaanites even to Sarepta: and the captivity of Jerusalem that is in Bosphorus, shall possess the cities of the south. (Douay-Rheims)
    • et transmigratio exercitus huius filiorum Israhel omnia Chananeorum usque ad Saraptham et transmigratio Hierusalem quae in Bosforo est possidebit civitates austri. (Vulgate)

PBF 04:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosporus or Bosphorus[edit]

Is it Bosporus or Bosphorus? I'm not sure. Danny

Webster's Ninth and RandomHouse have both, with Bosporus listed first. -- Marj Tiefert, Saturday, July 13, 2002
Thanks. Danny
Better make a mention of the alternative. I'm pretty sure in From Russia with Love (film) they say Bosphorus, it was on telly last weekend... -- Tarquin
It's Bosporus. Bosphorus is wrong.
--IonnKorr 20:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Both seems to be correct, with Bosporus as the most widely used. Howcome Bosporus redirects to Bosphorus and not the reverse? Bertilvidet 12:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The usage Bosphorus derives from a confused analogy with phosphorus.Manormadman (talk) 05:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Manormadman[reply]

Do you have a reference for that?  --Lambiam 22:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, but I know from my schooldays that in ancient Greek it was Bosporus (the letter Pi, not Phi), and the confusion with phosphorus is the obvious explanation for the arrival of the H. But I could be wrong -- I sometimes am! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manormadman (talk • contribs) 11:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cimmerian Bosporus[edit]

Is Cimmerian Chersonesus not a _city_ Chersonesos/Korsun'/Khersones, an ancient suburb of current Sevastopol? Why whole Crimean _peninsula_ is taken as parralel to the single _town_ Gallipoli? Mingis.

I've now put a fuller discussion of Bosporus/Bosphorus into the article, which seemed to warrant it. I've removed the Chersonese material as extrinsic to the topic: it belongs in its own article. But "Chersos" means "dry land" in Greek, and "Nesos" "island", so Chersonese is just Greek for a peninsular, of any size. If it is also the name of a suburb of Sevastopol (which is by the way built on the ancient Sebastopolis or "emperor's city"), that may just be a bit of archaising by a smart Russian property developer. Mark O'Sullivan 17:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of Bosporus[edit]

Ancient Greeks suggested an mythological etymology relative with Io )(or preciously, Iô), daughter of Inachus and mistress of Zeus.

But, I suppose that the word "Bos-porus" is derivated by the name of Bessians (or Bessi), a people of classical Thrace.

The word "porus" means "passage, strait" in ancient Greek.

So, Bosporus means "the strait of Bessians".

--IonnKorr 20:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Question of two-way flow in the Bosporus[edit]

As I remember Ryan and Pitman's book, the Bosporus has 2-way flow: near the surface fresh water flows from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, but lower there is a flow of salt water from the Mediterranear into the Black Sea. If this is correct, it would make the Bosporus one of the most interesting "rivers" in the world. If it is not correct, it should perhaps be noted by Wikipedia.

It is certainly true and it is indeed an interesting river. That makes navigating it even more interesting to say the least for those giant tankers that go in each direction.--Murat (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move[edit]

some talk seems to be at Talk:Bosporus. I propose we move this article (back?) to Bosporus Bertilvidet 13:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. "Bosporus" seems to be the most common spelling in dictionaries, etc. I will request a move (we need an admin because Bosporus already has an edit history). Lesgles (talk) 01:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move to Bosporus. Duja 13:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bosphorus → Bosporus – "Bosporus" is the spelling found in most dictionaries and encyclopedias and is also etymologically correct. In addition, most editors on the page Talk:Bosporus seem to support such a move. Lesgles (talk) 01:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Support. I proposed it; my reasoning is above. Lesgles (talk) 02:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Bosporous" is far less used than "Bosphorous" (this can be proved by a quick Google search). In fact, I had never heard of "Bosporous" before.--Húsönd 14:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support the move. Peter O. (Talk) 21:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Britannica and Columbia. —Khoikhoi 22:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per my reasoining on 12:51, 24 March 2006. No hurry. Bertilvidet 23:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ~ trialsanderrors 06:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support - The Ghits are roughly comparable, but the entymology is a reasonable reason for choosing between. Mention both in the article, though. Adam Cuerden talk 09:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

shipping[edit]

Does anyone have figures regarding the minimum depth of the strait, and maximum capacity a ship may have that can safely make passage?

Istanbul[edit]

The city of Constantinople wasn't renamed Istanbul until the 20th Century with the advent of the Turkish Republic; not in 1453. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.191.211.54 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Isn't Istanbul just the Turkish translation of Constantinople? AFAIR the Turks always called the city Istanbul, even when it was the Bycantine capital. Der Eberswalder (talk) 01:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Byzantine times, when Constantinople was the capital of the Empire, its official name was Nova Roma in Latin, Νέα Ῥώμη in Greek. The name Constantinople, although in common use, was an informal name. The Turks used several names for the city, of which Kostantiniyye, used in official documents, probably corresponds most directly to Constantinople. The name Istanbul probably comes from a Greek form pronounced Stimboli or Stambuli. See further Istanbul#Names and Names of Istanbul.  --Lambiam 18:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a whole article dedicated to the name of this queen of cities. I highly recommend it. All aspects covered.--Murat (talk) 16:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bosporus / Bosphorus again[edit]

In the English translation of Turkish Nobel-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk's Istanbul: Memories and the City, the author (or his translator) consistently uses Bosphorus. Also, the old wooden mansions on the shore are referred to as Yahs. Both versions differ from the article discussed here. Sca 02:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In English both Bosporus and Bosphorus are used, and the article mentions both forms in the first sentence. Bosporus with a p is the name in Latin, and corresponds to the Greek name (both ancient and modern Greek). It is unclear where forms like Bosphorus with a ph come from; one hypothesis is that this stems from contamination with Phosphorus. Many Romance languages have a ph or f (for example French Bosphore); the name in most other languages has a p. In encyclopedias and scholarly publications the form Bosporus is more common; Bosphorus is found more in literary texts, for whatever reason.
The name for the mansions (which are often but not always made of wood) is yalı, four letters of which the last letter ı (an i without a dot) is one of the extra letters in the Turkish alphabet. If the translation really has yah, that is an unfortunate misprint; but is also easy to misinterpret yalı as yah while reading; in some fonts they are almost undistinguishable. When rendering a Turkish word or name in English, the letter i is often substituted for ı, for example, Topkapı becomes Topkapi.  --Lambiam 19:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The name should be Bosphorus. It's the only version I had heard before I came here, and it gets 2 million hits on google, compared to 798,000 for Bosporus. We should go with common usage. Malick78 (talk) 16:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism Much?[edit]

You might want to fix this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.145.184 (talk) 10:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

gallery[edit]

We need a gallery. DenizTC 02:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tanker Traffic and Control[edit]

I think this is a very current and important topic. Should be dealt with in more technical and quantitative detail. The passage requirements, protocols, radar monitors, relevant laws and rules should be detailed. Anyone more knowledgeable is welcome!--Murat (talk) 16:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restored[edit]

Somebody (78.180.119.170) wiped out the full version of the article. I went into the previous version and saved it.Mother Mary (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bullshit sentence[edit]

I think this sentence is total bull: "...but the exact path is kept secret to avoid an early boom in land prices." What the fuck is wrong with a boom in land prices? 72.75.84.149 (talk) 04:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

those "in the know" would like to but up the land before the boom. —Saltmarsh 15:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Traditional enemy?[edit]

As a Turk, it pains me to see Greece being called "traditional enemy" (under Strategic importance). Being an enemy with someone is not a matter of tradition, but rather of historical circumstances. I therefore hold that this comment be removed. This is an entirely unwarranted claim that should be removed.

--94.54.236.28 (talk) 09:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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What direction does the stream flow??[edit]

Seriously? You tell me there's this underwater river, but what direction does it flow?? 75.151.57.113 (talk) 21:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

North/South Confusion[edit]

"To the south, at Yeniköy, the necessary course alteration is 80 degrees." ???

Yeniköy, "a neighbourhood in the Sarıyer district of Istanbul, Turkey." [a quote from where the weblink points] is north of Kandilli Point; not south.

spelling variant in -ph-[edit]

I see this has been an issue since 2006, but Wikipedia usually gets it right over time. Not in this case. Apparently, the decision to stick with "Bosphrous" was inspired by a naive google hit count.

Now, of course Bosporus is the etymological spelling. But Bosphorus is surprisingly common, and some dictionaries accept it as variant. As variant, mind, never as normal or primary spelling.

Of the "real" dictonaries polled at onelook.com, Bosporus is accepted by:[1]

Oxford Dictionaries, American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Collins English Dictionary, Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed. , Webster's Revised Unabridged, 1913 Edition , Webster's 1828 Dictionary, 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

By contrast, "Bosphorus" is accepted by: [2]: Oxford Dictionaries.

The Oxforddictionaries link redirects to the "Bosporus" entry as a matter of course[3], and there we have a simple note of "also Bosphorus".

I think this should speak for itself as to which is the primary spelling.

Now we are left with the task of tracing the unetymological spelling in -ph-.

This isn't just a naive corruption with "phosphorus" as has been suggested, it may be based on the Russian form, which is of course just as unetymological, but where Босфор is the only acceptable form. --dab (𒁳) 07:05, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have decent sources on the origin of the unetymological spelling in Russian and French. I have introduced a "Name" section, and plan to add such references as I find them. --dab (𒁳) 07:23, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

let's see. The French spelling has "always" been Bosphore, and this 1750 dictionary says that it is "not extraordinary" for the p to have "changed to ph". I assume that the spelling in ph is medieval, but so far no direct reference on this. There is the variant Bosphorus in English from an early time, but it never seems to have caught on (as the medieval French spelling clashes with the "learned" Latin rendition in -us?), in any case, Milton (PL 2.1018) has Through Bosporus betwixt the justling Rocks from the first edition. --dab (𒁳) 08:17, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
it turns out that the name was corrupted in medieval Greek. In order to trace this we need to descend into scholarship of the Geographi graeci minores. The Bosporus had become known as Prosphorion in 12th-century Greek, and anything becomes possible from there with a sufficiently medieval approach to orthography. --dab (𒁳) 08:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Latin manuscripts from the 9th/10th century already have the spelling variant with -ph- (e.g. "bosphorum" in Bede, De temporum ratione, c. 33[4] and "bosphoro" in Paul the Deacon, Historia Romana, 5, c. 5 [5]). Iblardi (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hesychius, always great for otherwise lost words, has βύζαντες with a meaning of "filled up". This is connected to buzo "to stuff with, to clog, fill up". I discovered this based on the unreferenced suggestion on French Wikipedia that bosporos may be from buzo, describing the strait as it were as a "plug" of the Black Sea. And Hesychius' byzantes is in this case very suggestive of the name Buzantium. This is an excellent proposal, but of course we will have to locate it in academic literature first. There no way at all this hasn't been discussed in philological journals, it's just a matter of locating the reference. I am sure the editor of French Wikipedia had it in front of them but failed to cite it. --dab (𒁳) 09:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Waffly lede[edit]

Any reason why we need navigation tips in the lede? --Pete (talk) 00:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Geological formation[edit]

The Formation section is pitching the Black Sea deluge hypothesis, with a sudden Holocene transgression into a freshwater Black Sea, as if it were, like, 'almost sure' or anywhere near current scientific consensus, which it certainly isn't. Most established geologists don't buy the idea that the Bosphorus has formed a sill cutting off the Black Sea at any point in the last million years, and the supposed evidence for a breaking through of the sill is highly controversial and insufficiently published in scientific terms (that is, some of it only exists as claims made by the people behind a half-obscure expedition, not as scholarly published data) even if it's made a splash in tabloids and on a few tv channels. The section should be speedily rewritten and properly sourced to reflect the real state of affairs. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 08:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Depth[edit]

Does anyone know the maximum draft (hull) for a ship in the Bosphorus ?--Io Herodotus (talk) 18:32, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Passage needs update[edit]

The section Bosphorus#Submarine says

The Eurasia Tunnel is a road undersea tunnel, crossing the Bosphorus for vehicular traffic, between Kazlıçeşme and Göztepe, which began construction in February 2011 and is expected to open in 2016.[citation needed]

This reference to an expected opening needs to be updated. Loraof (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Pronunciation[edit]

The claim "pronounced Vosporos in Ancient Greek" is wrong. (Unless it is referring to Koine Greek, and even then the claim is dubious.) Beta was indeed pronounced like an English /b/ in Classical Greek, and in fact the shift to a /v/ pronunciation was only came gradually with Koine Greek, such that it was probably present at the time of Constantine I, but not at the time of Alexander the Great. Thus, I recommend a change. 2A02:C7F:C617:6600:4DE9:F418:D575:51DF (talk) 03:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Crossings – not one sea cable?[edit]

Is there no sea cable crossing?

Do the (3) aerial powerlines include glass fibre cables within an electrical cable? Usally the highest cable on (lowest) electrical potential earth is used in this way.

Further I expect the existence of directed radio or microwave transmission for data, telecommunication, radio and tv content.

Laser and radar beams could measure the distance and calculated movement of poits of the earth.

Does helicopter service play a role in tranferring persons, e.g. to hospitals?

--Helium4 (talk) 08:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Strategic importance - NPOV Issue[edit]

I added the NPOV tag to this section since it has some weird point of view (and sourcing) issues. Examples:

  • "Turkey receives tolls from ships passing through the strait contrary to what Recep Tayyip Erdogan says to fit his narrative to build the Istanbul Canal. "
  • "The revenue can rise exponentially if Turkey asks gold instead of U.S. Dollars."

Move to "The Bosporus"[edit]

WikipedianUser12 (talk · contribs) has moved the page to "The Bosporus" however I don't see any discussion of this. The most recent discussion was to move it to "Bosporus". What are the Wikipedia rules on including the definite article in an article name? —DIYeditor (talk) 03:34, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikipedianUser12 (talk • contribs) 09:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite or indefinite article at beginning of name) lists the convention. Looks like this could go either way. Is there a reason you wanted it to be The Bosporus instead of what had been discussed above? Also you might want to use the "reply" link next to posts if you don't know how to format comments in the raw source format (indented and on a new line). Thanks. —DIYeditor (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article should not have been moved without discussion first — especially, WikipedianUser12, when you're "not sure" which is correct. I've read the guideline that —DIYeditor mentions, which says "If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the Wikipedia article name. Otherwise, do not." Note that the definite article is not capitalized in the article text. So, reasonably, the definite article should not be in the name. If somebody thinks it should, then they would presumably also argue that we need to change "the Bosporus" to "The Bosporus" throughout the Wikipedia article. On this ground, I have moved it back. Please feel free to discuss here, and if there's consensus, or even some good arguments, for the other title, I'll be glad to move it back again. Bishonen | tålk 15:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC).[reply]
    alright i am new here WikipedianUser12 (talk) 18:32, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you![edit]

I knew nothing about this strait and came looking for clear basic information. What I found exceeded my expectations: maps and pictures with useful descriptive captions, and a clear concise explanation of the place. Thank you. 64.251.81.58 (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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