Talk:Melungeon

loss of self-identification?

@Yuchitown: Per your revision of 15:17, 26 August 2023, it states:

[Plecker] directed the offices to reclassify members of certain families as black, causing the loss for numerous families of documentation in records that showed their continued self-identification as being of Native American descent.

I'm trying to parse this change. The reclassification of certain people of native American descent caused the loss of documentation of their self-identification as native Americans to be lost.

So they themselves are being identified (i.e. as "colored" or native American), but the issue is "by whom?". Adding "self" makes it seems like they're relying on the documentation as to how they identify themselves, whereas the issue is how they are identified by others who are going by whatever the documentation states. Fabrickator (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Native American is capitalized as per MOS. You appear very resistant to the verifiable truth that in the past certain Melungeon families self-identified as having Native American ancestry. No tribes identified them as such, so falls to self-identification. Yuchitown (talk) 19:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Au contraire! I am not resistant to any such claim, but the issue is how state officials identified them. Plecker insisted on changing their identification (on existing birth records) from "Indian" to "colored" with the result that subsequent offspring would, by law, be identified as "colored". Fabrickator (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Then what's the problem? Yuchitown (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Your change represents that changing the designation on birth certificates affected how they self-identified, when it actually affected how they were identified on official state records. In so doing, it also precluded descendants from being identified as "American Indian". Thus, the problem is not how they self-identify, but how they are identified by the state on their birth certificates. Fabrickator (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

But these families are the origin of the identification. The identification is not originating from any Native American tribe. Make it "self-identify on their official forms" if you want. Yuchitown (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Regarding the above statement and your edit adding "on official forms", it sounds like you are trying to put forward some prescriptive standardized and well-enforced process, going beyond mere self-reporting of births by those persons directly involved in the birthing process. Can it be recorded as a "tribal birth" only if reported on an "Official Tribal form"? Can you provide a source for this? Fabrickator (talk) 03:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I am attempting to accomodate you while keeping the article truthful. You do not appear to be familiar with Native American topics. You can try reading WP:NDNID, but, in a nutshell, with Native identity when an individual or family claims a Native American identify, we at Wikipedia can only verify that that have self-identified. To claim anything beyond that and to make a statement that they actually are of Native American descent would require that a specific Native American tribe claims the individual or family. Census records are primary documents; today they are completely self-identified. Yuchitown (talk) 15:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

You need to sign your comment below. But you keep ignoring the fact that no Native American is claiming any of these families, hence "self-identification. Yuchitown (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

You are attempting to apply WP:NDNID out of context. That's clearly when, in a WP article, a claim is made that some specific person or persons are indigenous. No such claim is being made (i.e. about a specific individual or individuals) in this instance. Instead, we are describing a generic case of somebody registering a birth and reporting how they claim the offspring should be registered. We are not making any claim in the article that a particular individual is in fact indigenous. This is how the birth is registered and how the state recognizes it, thereby determining how that person is treated by the law, even if it is not satisfactory as evidence to support such a claim on WP. Fabrickator (talk) 20:32, 27 August 2023

Yuchitown wrote: "... you keep ignoring the fact that no Native American is claiming any of these families."

I am missing something. This is not dependent on any specific person actually being a Native American. Rather, the claim is that there was a set of persons who had been reported on their birth certificates as American Indian, which had actually provided them with certain advantages as compared to being registered as "colored". I'm perplexed as to where you're coming from, I guess it's that they were properly not Native Americans, so they shouldn't have been able to register as American Indians. Or you feel it's material for some other reason. But it's not a relevant issue, inasmuch as the article is not claiming that any particular person was a Native American. The intention of the Wikipedia guideline is that within an article, we should not assert that someone is a Native American without a tribal acknowledgement to that effect. Such a claim is not being made in the article, and in particular, it's not being made with regard to any specific person. The claim is that "... documentation in records ... showed their continued identification as being of Native American descent." The claim is not that they were in fact Native Americans, but that right or wrong, the actual birth records showed them as Native Americans.

So what's my objection to prefixing "identified" with "self"? In this context, "self-identified" would likely be interpreted to mean that they actually considered themselves to be Native Americans, but we should only infer that they registered their births that way because they couldn't register as "white" and they didn't want to register as "colored". Until the passage of the Racial Integrity Act, Melungeons were able to be reported on their birth certificates as American Indians. That's not to assert that they were in fact American Indians, but that was the best choice available to them, and until Plecker came along, they were able to have that claim accepted. None of this depended on tribal documentation for the selection of "American Indian" to have the desired effect. Fabrickator (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Here I am, back again. I can see how people looking at the phrasing in the article may think that "self-identified" is an appropriate term here, yet it provides a pretty specific inference that the person (the parents?) were able to exercise their own free will in the matter, yet the reality is the only available choices were "white", "colored", and "American Indian" (setting aside the issue that the rationale for the "self" prefix is a Wikipedia policy about verifiability). But if we were to be consistent, we would have to say that after the Racial Integrity Law became effective, they self-identified as "colored", even though that was the only choice open to them.

This system of classification of race is something that was "done to" these people. They may have had a greater or lesser influence on this, depending on the conditions under which the race was reported. When they had the option, they chose "American Indian" rather than "colored". What they actually self-identified as? I don't know, but it wouldn't have been limited to the selections provided on the official forms. I suggest that it would lessen the confusion to replace "identified" with "assigned", "recorded", or something similar. Fabrickator (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to add "self-identify" to "colored" or "white." Yuchitown (talk) 16:18, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

WP:REDFLAG

The first paragraph is linked in error to a third party opinion on a controversial study; the primary source used for the word Melungeon is arbitrarily placed in the middle of the sentence and connected to an additional source that does not agree with the primary source and definition of Melungeon people and where they are from.

Melungeons (/məˈlʌndʒənz/ mə-LUN-jənz) (sometimes also spelled Malungeans, Melangeans, Melungeans, Melungins) are a group of people from Appalachia who predominantly descend from Northern or Central European women and sub-Saharan African men. Their ancestors were likely brought to Virginia as indentured servants in the mid-17th century.

This citation could be cleaned up and the citation mentioned twice should be collapsed in one sentence and the full citation and resource should be in sentence 1 found here on the definition of Melungeon: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/1890/volume-10/1890a_v10-2

Source in dispute: https://www.tampabay.com/incoming/dna-study-seeks-origin-of-melungeons/1231925/ StephanieTree (talk) 02:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I believe this falls under WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If there are published, secondary sources discussing this or other genetic studies of this group, you can add them, but trying to suppress published material that you don't agree with is censorship. Wikipedia is not censored. Yuchitown (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I believe an article that talks about living people who were a part of a genetic study is an inappropriate source to use for the definition of this word, which is in violation of WP:HARM StephanieTree (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Avoiding harm that is. StephanieTree (talk) 16:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

It's also a citation for a collection of essays in which the editor is credited for the source found on page 201- which is really an essay by Smith, J. Douglas. “The Campaign for Racial Purity and the Erosion of Paternalism in Virginia, 1922-1930: ‘Nominally White, Biologically Mixed, and Legally Negro.’” The Journal of Southern History, vol. 68, no. 1, 2002, pp. 65–106. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/3069691. Accessed 3 Sept. 2023.

This collection of 15 essays is a self published book and not an acceptable citation on wikipedia as it is. I should also note that the reference cited discusses Walter Plecker, not Melungeons nor defines them one time. StephanieTree (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

References

proposal to delete "A Typical Malungeon" sketch

The "A Typical Malungeon" (Calloway Collins) illustration is more of a caricature than a realistic depiction of a Melungeon. IIRC, this was commissioned by Dromgoole and her perspective on the Melungeons is evidently not unbiased. Additionally, the article doesn't alert the reader to this fact.

I suggest that the illlustration be removed from the article. In the alternative, there could be additional content added elaborating on societal or systemic bias against Melungeons (e.g. in the media, as exemplified by Dromgoole's "contributions"). I'm not volunteering to do this, just saying that this would provide the needed context for this illustration. Fabrickator (talk) 05:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you; the illustration of Calloway Collins is a caricature and part of the Yellow Journalism of Dromgoole; the other issue with this picture with the Goins family picture is that this words is steeped in racism- the word itself is a caricature of a group of people. To include a picture of a family and not even know who they are or give credit to them or the source of the photo other then looking like a realistic depiction of a Melungeon is also not unbiased. The two pictures provided in this article together are definitely inappropriate; however the Calloway Collins depiction was titled "A Typical Melungeon" and was infamously circulated along with the descriptions of these families by Dromgoole. It makes it not wikipedia appropriate when someone has decided that Arch Goins' brother's family provides a "realistic depiction of a Melungeon" since this word is a racial slur at the end of the day. I propose the Goins family picture is deleted in favor of sticking to documented evidence of where "Melungeons" were written about in history with that descriptor- not based on someone's private family photos on wikipedia that were uploaded from the Melungeon Heritage Association but the original source is no where to be found since this is a private collection photo. I agree with the alternative- to provide education with an appropriate context of this illustration; and then I also propose to delete the Goins family photo- unless someone can provide a source for this photo. StephanieTree (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support deletion of "A Typical Melungeon" illustration as per nom. Yuchitown (talk) 16:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
• Extricate Between the complexities of this specific issue and at least one other issue I previously raised regarding this article, I cannot continue to participate, e.g. the proposal here has become too confused, and in the other case, I have repeated my position but it has not been acknowledged (i.e. I'm saying something but the party it's directed at isn't hearing me), and my continued efforts would be found tiring to the other parties, and possibly lead to sanctions. To put it in other words, I feel that other participants have either stuck their fingers in their ears or just chosen to remain silent, so my best solution is just to extricate myself insofar as this article is concerned. Fabrickator (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  The illustration is not a caricature.

  THE MORRISTOWN GAZETTE

  I quote;

  I send with this a picture of one of them, Calloway Collins, who declared is father was a full-blooded Cherokee. CALLOWAY IS AN INDIAN IF EVER ONE LIVED ON TENNESSEE SOIL. The picture was drawn by Mr. Thomas M. Sharpe, of Nashville, and is exceedingly well done. Calloway was a soldier belonging to the First Tennessee, under Brownlow and to-day draws a pension for three bullet wounds. His daughter Dorcas (one of Mr. Sharpe's drawings) speaks for herself. The family group is from life. We visited this family with Mr. John Tyler, the brother of Hon. A. J. Tylre of Sneedville. I send the pictures alons with this, and my anonymous critic can see them by calling at the American office.

  The rest of Thomas M. Sharpe's Sketches

  https://the-melungeons.blogspot.com/2023/02/hancocks-malungeons-will-allen.html JoannePezzu (talk) 13:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Grammar ambiguity and "reliable sources"

The article in its current form says "Their ancestors were likely brought to Virginia as indentured servants in the mid-17th century." This is quoted from a newspaper article in the Tampa Bay Times about a DNA study of Melungeon ancestry. An editor has rejected an effort to insert the word "White" before "ancestors", holding to exact quotation. I believe that the word "White" should be inserted, for two reasons. The source that is quoted is not a reliable source for details of American history, it is much more reliable about events in Tampa Bay. Secondly, I have found zero mentions of indentured servants from Africa (aside from some speculation regarding 20 Africans in 1619). Do other editors agree with my position that the cited source is not adequately reliable to claim that people from Africa were indentured servants in the era leading to the Melungeons? 00:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Pete unseth (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I should mention that the article you mention was not originally published in the Tampa Bay Times, rather, it was written by the Associated Press (an esteemed national news organization) and reprinted in the Tampa Bay Times. You can find the article republished elsewhere besides the Tampa Bay Times. Therefore, your point about the article's authority suffering because it was published in the Florida paper is entirely moot. That's really all I feel I can add to this conversation at this time, standing by my earlier edits. I will yield to whatever consensus is reached in the talk page by Mr. Unseth and other editors. 128.197.29.246 (talk) 17:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)