Talk:ODESSA

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H Res. 235[edit]

That bill was introduced, but never came to the floor for a vote.


Himmler and Borman in 1946?[edit]

Himmler and Borman were both DEAD in 1946!!!

Janrpeters 03:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bormann's case is a sticky topic since some people still claim he got out of Berlin after the war. Jak722 11:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well they are wrong. Adam 11:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are and the point being, no one was really sure up until recently when they found his bones. Jak722 11:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they'd had the bones in 1972, but it was 1998 before DNA testing proved it was Bormann. Poor Simon Wiesenthal. He wanted so hard for one of the big-name Nazis to be out there, and to find him. Dan, 1847 CDT, 12 Sept 2010.

"Was/is"[edit]

Can we describe this as such? It's not exactly proven to still exist is it? Megawattbulbman 16:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of no actual source that states that this organization has ever existed.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Floating quote[edit]

The quote in this article is "floating" - that is, it has no clear defined context, its just "suggestive of something" but never exactly tied down.

Can someone source it and provide a context? FT2 04:11, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Ratline article[edit]

There is a stub page called Ratlines (history). I am thinking it would be a good idea to use that page for a more general article on the whole issue of Nazi escape routes, including allegations/rebuttals with evidence for CIA, Vatican involvement etc. Then refer to this page for specific discussion on the ODESSA network. I will start putting some stuff up there as I get time. What do you think?--Bengalski 13:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cliff hanger[edit]

The Argentine government has finally agreed to open two it's secret Nazi files. Stay tuned next week when our heros find out what is in those files!!! :-) PerlKnitter 12:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I wonder as to whether the release of those files might in any way at all be connected with the good Mr. Wiesenthal's death? Quite a coincidence, anyway. --Wernher 01:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Any news on this? Nach0king 17:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently not. 2.31.166.209 (talk) 11:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Ratlines[edit]

Shouldn't it be merged with Ratlines (history)? Informations are splitting between the two articles, and ODESSA is the most famous - if only? - ratlines known... Tazmaniacs 13:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it recent work (eg. Uki Goñi The Real Odessa, Aarons and Loftus Unholy Trinity) suggests that ODESSA played only a minor part in the escape of Nazi and other fascist war-criminals. Recently available documents and research seem to argue that much bigger roles were played by certain catholic priests and organisations (Bishop Hudal, Dragunovic etc.), possibly (though this is highly disputed) with official backing from of the Vatican; and certain states (Argentina in particular, also perhaps intelligence agencies of various western powers.) Therefore my view is 'ratlines' should be the main article, discussing all the alleged escape routes and networks, with the ODESSA article taking a more narrow look just at the alleged SS veterans' association.Bengalski 17:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given that I've started doing some expansion of the Ratlines article - would be grateful for any help/comments/arguments from people who have worked on this page - I don't want to duplicate what's here, but I do think this needs to be broadened beyond the ODESSA organisation.Bengalski 22:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Goñi denied that there was an organization called Odessa, and Aaron&Loftus' book is conspiracy theory trash. Zerotalk 14:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bormann and Himmler[edit]

This article ain't right anymore since a skull dug up in Berlin proofed to be of Martin Bormann, so it's a bit unrealistic for him to lead Odessa. Same for Himmler. Documents recently released proof that he was captured and killed by the Britisch during interogations. So both of them were death before Odessa even started to excist... http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/death/PRO_docs_story.html

  • ODESSA was allegedly created towards the end, not at the end of the war. Meaning it was already being planned, or was, before the war ended. Also, up until they discovered his remains, in 1946 a whole bunch of people still believed he managed to get out of German through similar plans like ODESSA. They didn't really have proof at the time and they probably just connected Bormann to it because of the mystery surrounding him. Jak722 11:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Skorzeny[edit]

According to the article on Skorzeny, he died of a heart attack in Madrid. But according tot his article, he died of an accident. Can someone explain? 209.221.73.5 15:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He died of Cancer. He had 2 tumors on his spine which were removed but they were malignant and he died from it. I fixed it. The page keeps automatically reverting back to the incorrect information. He did not die from an accident.

Although Nazi mysticists believe hes hidden in the centre of the Earth ready for a worldwide takeover with the hep of aliens... Racooon

User:Donnog's changes[edit]

User:Donnog wishes to make the following changes, which some of us consider POV (at the very least). Discuss.

  1. Eliminate the reference to the ratlines article, on the grounds that it is describing people as rats[1].
  2. In ..helped Adolf Eichmann, Josef Mengele, Erich Priebke, Aribert Heim and many other war criminals, change "war criminals" to "national socialists".
  3. Change the reference to the Klarsfelds from "anti-Nazi activities" to "Zionist activities".
  4. Change "war crimes charges" to "political persecution"
  5. Eliminate the question of whether ODESSA was "a criminal conspiracy that protected and smuggled out war criminals"
  6. Change "Many Ex-Nazis war criminals managed to escape using ODESSA" to "Many national socialists accused of alleged war crimes managed to escape using ODESSA."

He claims, here and at Talk:Concentration camp, that these are to enhance NPOV; I claim the opposite -- that they are attempting to whitewash exactly who ODESSA was about. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Donnog's removal of term ratlines appears to result from his limited fluency in English. A ratline is a ship's ladder made of ropes. Any good dictionary will confirm that this word is derived not from "rat" but from Middle English "rathelinge" and is related to "rattle". It is not offensive by any standard.
The claim that Serge and Beate Klarsfeld were "Zionist activists" is not verifiable.

--Witoldb

Donnog, before you make major edits, may I suggest that you post them here first in order to obtain community feedback? So far, your uncompromising attitude leads in the direction of a Revert_war, which is likely to get administrators involved and I don't think they are likely to rule in your favor.

I hope we can arive at some sort of agreement, if not, we should follow the Arbitration_policy. Witoldb 19:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree: I'll assume good faith and chalk it up to nuances of the English language (mainly because I haven't read his contribution history), but I agree that the result is POV. DMacks 16:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ODESSA = Organization former SS members?[edit]

The ominoese organization "ODESSA" never gave it (probably). It is to be referred into the range of the LEGENDS. Simon Wiesenthal coined/shaped this term and remotelongs these of the German "chief historian" of the second German (Second Channel of German Television), Giudo Knopp, spread. Into the 1960er years - in such a way I believed - "ODSSA" was the name of a feature, in which the "political organization of former SS members" were described. The regular "veteran federations" of the former SS members in Germany and Austria are: the "HIAG" (Germany) and the "Kameradschaft IV" (Austria). Postmann Michael 22:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have already edited the article to make it clear that the existence of ODESSA is disputed and that some writers, notably Sereny, think it never existed. I don't think it can be asserted that Wiesenthal invented it without a citation. Adam 06:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Adam. Postmann Michael, the article itself cites eight different sources proving its existence; while your opinion might be valuable, it can't be included without proper references. —Coat of Arms (talk) 15:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just deleted a link referring to "Germany's Fourth Reich". As I suppose Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia, there shouldn't be any links to hair-raising extremist views (to put it mildly). After all, this ODESSA article is dealing with history and not with speculations about the present and future European Union. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.13.72.153 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Otto Adolf Eichmann Karl-Adolf Eichmann Schutzstaffel [edit]

Something about this page is confusing me.

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 03:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why is because the Neo-Nazis are doing their best to cover up the history and foundations of their secret organizations and their vast economic clout internationally. There are plenty of books (found in the bibliography, by Infield, Tetens, Schultz, Wechsberg, for example) with ample data proving that ODESSA or something similar to it existed, and that it also participated in the transfer and money-laundering of the extensive wealth held by the Nazis at the end of World War II. As for a Fourth Reich, it is more likely to be defined as an international corporatist political network that includes many of the still highly successful German corporations and banks that in essence ran the economics of the Third Reich, along with other international corporations that also supported the objectives of the Third Reich, including Italian, Japanese, and secretly pro-Nazi American corporations. The idea of a Fourth Reich was put forth by Germans in 1945 (per Wechsberg) and is no more 'extremist' than the actions and political strategizing of the international fascist corporations and the political organizations they either fund, lobby, or manipulate. As of 2008, the 'New World Order' touted by national political leaders correlates strongly with what the early definitions of 'Fourth Reich' were. As for correspondences with the European Union, has there not always been a concern that the EU could become more of a collection of colonies dominated by the economic interests emanating from one or two superpowers rather than a democratic federation of nations? And this explains why the EU has taken so long to manifest, and why key nations resisted in the past. As well as concerns about balance-of-power issues with North American and Asian corporations and interests, and the fusion of the European Union with NATO.... and the controversial participation of Nazi officers in the early formation of NATO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uranian Institute (talk • contribs) 01:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vatican?[edit]

Arer there sources that would prove that the ODESSA had ties with Vatican? if there are any, then please clearly specify them as I am very interested in this topic. --Abastillas (talk) 13:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There were priests who were Nazi sympathizers and helped them escape. Yugoslav, as I recall. Probably others. It going to be difficult if not impossible to connect the Vatican with any of this. They were not Nazi sympathizers. The Nazis had murdered far too many German and Polish Catholics. The Vatican hid Jewish people from the Germans, for example.Student7 (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ties between the Gehlen organizations 'Die Spinne' and 'ODESSA' and German politician Hans Globke, active in Catholic politics, are covered in T. H. Tetens "The New Germany and the Old Nazis" (Marzani & Munsel, 1961, LCN 61-7240), pp.37-42. Other involvements of Catholic officials in assisting Nazi war criminals to escape to South America, where they continued to maintain Nazi political organizations, are described in Glenn Infield's "Secrets of the SS" (Stein and Day, 1982, ISBN 0-8128-2790-2). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uranian Institute (talk • contribs) 02:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There were "ties" from individuals who happened also to be priests or who listed "Catholic" as their faith. The ties were not from a Catholic organization.Student7 (talk) 12:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Existence[edit]

There is much circumstantial evidence that ODESSA actually existed, but there is no actual definative proof that it existed. While I, personally, believe it existed the article really should be updated to reflect that there is debate as to its existance. The lead section says "ODESSA is ..." when it really should be "ODESSA is reported to be ...". Thoughts? fr33kman -s- 16:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am highly suspicious of any claim that there is or ever was such an organization. This of course does not mean that there were not deliberate efforts made to help Nazis escape to Argentina. I am doing a rewrite of Eduard Roschmann, supposedly one of the more prominent Nazis helped by ODESSA, and I find nothing outside of fiction (The Odessa File) to support any such organization. I haven't read the sources that are claimed to support the existence of the organization in this article. If they do, there should be some detailed quotes (within the bounds of fair use) to assist the reader to make a decision as to the strength of the claims.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Elvis didn't do no drugs.

Odessa networks finland septemper 1944[edit]

One finish wraiters tell books german submarines visit many time finland west coast september 1944 and summer 1945! That book name is "Gestapo Suomessa", eng "Gestapo Finland" 1936-1944. That is one webpage tell Sonderkommando Nord time but Odessa start winter 1945 high rank naziparty members shipping finland. Odessa spy kill Danish Thoralf Kyrre 1960. Thoralf Kyrre living war time finland. And her is high rank gestapo spy. Kyrre living Helsinki area him work radio factory engineer. Stella Polaris start 1944 and that was finish army war material(maps,break russians ciphers and etc)travling Sweden and meny finish army spy too D100a (talk) 20:21, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This material doesn't appear to refer to ODESSA. I'm not clear that this organization even existed, or who came up with the name. I don't read Finnish in the least, but the pages for Sonderkommando Nord and Thoralf Kyrre do not seem to make any mention of ODESSA. Fixentries (talk) 20:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is bad becouse Ali Alava`s write finnish language not english. D100a (talk) 21:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure we can find someone to translate it if it actually mentions ODESSA. Ask on the finnish wikipedia, perhaps. Fixentries (talk) 21:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two artikles Fiwiki one and two D100a (talk) 04:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The second one I already looked at and it doesn't mention ODESSA. The first one seems to reflect what you said before but not in any detail. You can use translate.google.com to try to translate it and I or someone else can clean it up for you, however I am very skeptical of this claim and what it might be based on.
The problem here, and I haven't looked at all the "sources" for this article, is that this all seems to be based on conjecture, and lumping together any actions that might have been committed by this hypothetical organization. The logic seems to be, assume "ODESSA" exists, and if there is anything that looks like something "ODESSA" might have done, attribute it to "ODESSA" - rather than being based on some kind of clear documentary evidence. How do they know it's not Stille Hilfe or associates who did it? How do they know it wasn't some other organization? How do they know if it was not any clear organization at all? I'm not convinced this label "ODESSA" is the self-applied name of a real organization and the sources, on the surface, look very questionable. Fixentries (talk) 05:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is problems. Ali Alava writing book " old gestapo and new gestapo(Odessa?)" and new gestapo commander was Mr Gehlen :) New Boss but orgainsation is old gestapo and Abwehr spy`s. That is Kyrre´s news from Danish language. And new book found google and that pageD100a (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Doubts about existence[edit]

Dear All,

I've spent the past three years working on a history of Nazi hunting called Hunting Evil. It's an academically rigorous work, and I've consulted many archives and conducted lots of interviews. After much consideration, there's little doubt that the Odessa as described on this page is largely a work of fiction, concocted largely by a former SD officer called Wilhelm Hoettl, who peddled dubious intelligence to Simon Wiesenthal, who in turn gave the story to journalists, which ultimately ended up on the lap of Frederick Forsyth. What follows below is the main part of my chapter entitled 'The Odessa Myth'. Please have a look through it and if anybody would like to discuss, then please get back to me at my website, which is guywalters.com

Best wishes

Guy Walters — 81.132.245.149 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 09:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC). Identified as hosted by ISP: BT from Birmingham, United Kingdom. Poeticbent talk 19:12, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hunting Evil : extended book excerpt with GFDL missing
Chapter: The Odessa Myth. Page 202. [22/10/09 09:39 (UTC)]

The truth about the Nazi escape organizations, beneath the mushroom clouds of smoke, is that they were similar to an old-boy network, or perhaps even the loose web of terrorist cells and groups that are today placed under the name of al-Qaeda.37 After the war, there were countless organizations that assisted escaping Nazis, and some of these groups had names – such as ‘Konsul’, ‘Scharnhorst’, ‘Sechsgestirn’, ‘Leibwache’, ‘Lustige Brüder’ – and some did not.38 Instead of one big fire under the smoke, there were instead many small ones, the combination of their multiple and toxic emissions suggestive of a single large inferno. Assistance would also be provided on an ad hoc [p. 202 continued on p. 203 [22/10/09 09:39 (UTC)]]

basis, sometimes by an individual or a handful of individuals rather than by a coordinated group. In May 1945, the British Second Army reported that a Burgermeister had issued one thousand false military government travel permits to wanted persons.[39] In July, three Catholic priests were arrested for helping to run an illegal mail service for SS and civilian internees.[40] The following month, it was discovered that some German doctors were helping SS men to remove their blood-group tattoos, and were furnishing them with false medical reports to ensure their immediate release.[41] Of course, the notion that a supposedly highly secret society of cunning former SS men would give itself the name ‘The Organization of Former SS Members’ is in itself open to disbelief. If the word ‘Odessa’ must be used today, then it might be used as an umbrella term to refer to all the secret ‘transportation societies’ that looked after fugitive Nazis.

However, as we have seen, the records do show that there was something called ‘Odessa’. Far from being the globalized tentacled monster of popular imagination, it appeared to start as little more than a watchword, and would become a term loosely ascribed to the group that took fugitives from Germany and Austria down to Rome and Genoa, and from there to Spain and Argentina. One of the earliest recorded mentions of ‘Odessa’ is in a CIC memo dated 3 July 1946, in which an underground organization at an SS internment camp in Auerbach was identified. It was not called ‘Odessa’, but the word was employed as a codeword in order to gain ‘special food privileges and special food consideration’ from the Red Cross in Augsburg. The term also had currency further afield, in towns such as Kempten, Rosenheim, Mannheim [p. 203 continued on page 204 [22/10/09 09:39 (UTC)]]

and Berchtesgaden, where it was applied to small cells of unrepentant SS members in order to provide them with a feeling of solidarity. As these groups lacked any form of organization and leadership, the CIC was not overly troubled.[42] However, in November, the Czechs informed the Americans that they had caught wind of an organization called ‘ODESSA’ that was operating in the British Zone of Occupation, and that it had held its first meeting in Hamburg in September [p. 204 continued on p. 205 [22/10/09 09:39 (UTC)] ... but] neither the Americans nor the British were able to verify any of the informant’s claims. [Guy Walters, Hunting Evil — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.245.149 (talk) 09:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ODESSA denial[edit]

Denial is not just a river in Africa.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Private Enterprise[edit]

Why is there no talk of the rich industrialists who financed them just after the War?
--Atikokan (talk) 02:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Argentina law[edit]

Why is the long paragraph about argentina policy towards jewish immigrants relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.219.54.24 (talk) 18:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Incomplete sentence[edit]

"In 1976 thriller novel by Ira Levin titled The Boys from Brazil, Dr. Josef Mengele, the concentration camp medical doctor who performed horrible experiments on camp victims during World War II." Looks like the latter part of the sentence has been removed.

SelectSplat (talk) 21:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Needs more on Middle Eastern escapees[edit]

The article focuses quite heavily on escapees to South America with only one brief mention of escapees to the Middle East. Alois Brunner lived until his natural death of old age in 2001 as a refugee under the Assad regime in Syria. Large numbers of low ranking SS officers found their way to Egypt where Nasser employed them as military trainers for his Palestinian fedayeen in combat against Israel. Romomusicfan (talk) 11:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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