Talk:Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh

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Comments 2003-2004

Stewart became the Marquess of Londonderry, but historically he is known as Lord Castlereagh. Using his highest title would give him an unrecognisable name. I have thus used his most commonly recognised title with his name. JtdIrL 19:49 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure that he ever succeeded to his father's title, did he? Deb 19:57 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I just followed what the article stated. JtdIrL 22:01 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, he was briefly Marquess. Some of the places I looked it up didn't mention it, and some had him down as being the son of the Second Marquess -- possibly because of the earl/marquess change. Deb 17:57 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)

Hm... slight problem, perhaps. His father was also briefly 'Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh' until he was created an earl. Do we just ignore this?Mintguy 23:27, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll add a disambig soon. But I have a question: the article mentions that someone told Castlereagh to "consult a physician", and he committed suicide thereafter. Did he commit suicide because he was paranoid and thought "consult a physician" meant something else? Or did he commit suicide because he was insane? I can't really find the reasoning in that in the article, or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough... ugen64 16:28, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

In terms of the disambiguation, I don't think it's terribly important - his father was only known as Viscount Castlereagh for a year, between 1795 and 1796, when he became Earl of Londonderry. As to the latter part, Castlereagh was being blackmailed for supposedly being a homosexual. The "consult a physician" bit does not seemed to have caused his suicide. it was just the king's response to this news, which was hardly encouraging for Castlereagh. john k 16:37, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I added that final para. IIRC no-one has ever been sure whether there really was a blackmailer ot whether it was in Castlereagh's head. I think perhaps that King was intending suggest that Castlereagh needed to seek medical advice because he thought that the blackmail was in Castlereagh's mind. Or pehaps the words were intended to suggest the Castlereagh consult a physician to "cure him" of homosexual tendencies, or perhaps the King just wanted to get rid of him and the response satistfied either situation. I don't have a citation for the quotes, I have to admit I read it on the web somewhere. Mintguy (T) 18:14, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Leader of the Commons in 1821-22?

How could he have held the post for the last year of his life when he was in the House of Lords? (Technically as the Lord Stewart.) Timrollpickering 16:16, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My mistake - Lord Stewart was his half-brother, the 3rd Marquess, who was already enobled during Castlereagh's lifetime. Timrollpickering 01:39, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yup, yup. Old Charles Stewart was British ambassador to Prussia during the latter part of the Napoleonic Wars. john k 05:04, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lord Londonderry was able to remain Leader of the House of Commons because he was an Irish peer, not a British one.

To clarify in case the subject comes up again. The Marquess of Londonderry is in the Irish peerage. Castlereagh's father, the 1st Marquess, sat in the UK House of Lords because he was made a Representative Peer as part of the Act of Union. But the "representative" status was personal, not hereditary. So on his death, his seat in the House of Lords was taken by another Irish peer who was appointed as a "representative peer" to replace him. Given Castlereagh's political stature and record of service, he could have undoubtedly been appointed to replace his father as "representative peer" in the House of Lords. But he was rather desperately needed to continue to lead the Commons. Dunnettreader (talk) 05:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Page Move

General consensus has been that he should remain at Viscount Castlereagh, as that is how he is best known. So I have moved him back. john k 01:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Most Honourable

Pray tell, why can't the article begin with his style? Thesocialistesq 04:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

-rah or -rey?

How would one pronounce "Castlereagh"?

"Caa-sul-ray". Proteus (Talk) 15:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a Castlereagh Street in Sydney (Australia). I have heard the pronunciation "Castlerock" there. --82.135.90.142 (talk) 22:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"ray," as evidenced by the rhymes in various poems by Byron and Shelley that incorporated the name (and biting criticism of the person). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.209.24 (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

GA quick-failed

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have failed the article at this time. The article is lacking any inline citations which is a requirement under the criteria. It would also be beneficial to add an infobox; look at WP:Bio for which one to use. Headings should only have the first word capitalized unless the word is a proper noun (Decline and Death should be Decline and death). Once you have addressed these issues, and have looked over the rest of the criteria, consider renominating again. Also consider getting a peer review to see how the article can be improved further. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 06:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

GA revisited

Hello, here are my comments.

• Ensure in-line citations are placed according to WP:CITE. Also, it's a lot nicer if the references are given titles rather than their simple URL's being shown at the bottom in the references section. See WP:REF for more on this.
• Early career and Ireland section contains several short paragraphs, I'd prefer to see them flowed together to form one or two larger paragraphs.
• In Back in cabinet and the duel with Canning section, do tensions really cool or do they relax? Just read a bit strange to me!
• Avoid single-sentence paragraphs.
• Tenses are a bit mixed, i.e. "Later, he would learn..." vs "Stewart was elected..." for example.
• (Just an aside, I found abstruse difficult to understand, so I looked it up and it turned out to mean... well... difficult to understand...!)
• Last half of Decline and death section lacks citation, in particular statements like "His funeral on August 20 was greeted with jeering and insults along the processional route, although not to the level of unanimity projected in the radical press." need attribution otherwise may be considered original research.
• When using paper references, it's best to actually cite the pages used as well as the books themselves, for a more thorough set of references.
• Why is this categorised as Category:LGBT history of the United Kingdom?

So, I'll put the GA review on hold for the time being, attend to these points and get back to me for a re-review. Cheers. The Rambling Man 07:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

LGBT History

Castlereagh's article is in Category:LGBT history of the United Kingdom because he was blackmailed for being homosexual - and in fact probably committed suicide for that very reason. I've replaced the cat and the project banner. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well can it be referenced in the text with a citation then please? I can't find any mention of this in the article so it's unclear why it's tagged as such and should be removed unless suitable citable text is added. The Rambling Man 08:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I've added a ref to the quote. Let me know if you think the article (which is now on my watchlist) needs that section to be clearer. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 08:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That's great, but can we be even more specific in the text so that a non-familiar reader can understand the relevance of the blackmailing was? After all, you can be blackmailed for an awful number of things so I think you should make it clear that it was related to him being (accused of being) homosexual. The Rambling Man 08:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

A little clearer? Does anything else need to be said? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 08:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's perfect I think. The Rambling Man 08:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I added a sentence making it clear that we don't know if he really was homosexual or bisexual, or if instead it was a function of his paranoia. I still think that this one statement, made under considerable duress, is a pretty flimsy reason to include him in the LGBT category, but I suppose it doesn't hurt. -- The_socialist ^talk? 21:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The source I added says "There is no evidence to show that Castlereagh had any homosexual inclinations, although he has been credited with them." - [1]. But it doesn't back that up with anything. I'll see if I can find anything more for that. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have Hyde, H. M. (1959). The Strange Death of Lord Castlereagh.? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

GA revisited, pass

Hello folks, sorry it's been a few days but I've been out of the country. I've looked over the changes made and I'm pleased to say that I think it's in a much better state. I've added a Further reading section as the in-line references and the bullet list of texts didn't look great. Anyway, enough of that, I'm promoting the article to GA and congratulate those involved in getting the article there. All the best, The Rambling Man 15:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarded in Ireland...

The article states: "In Ireland he is always regarded, particularly by nationalists, as a traitor." I can find nothing in the given citation [[2]] to support this. Moreover "always... particularly by nationalists" seems unlikely, since what nationalists would regard as treason (against Ireland, presumably) unionists would regard rather as praiseworthy.

I'm removing the line. If someone can find a supporting citation, a statement of the form "Irish nationalists regard[ed] him as..." might be in order. - Paul (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Limavady

In the table at the bottom of this article it is not listed that Castlereagh was first elected to the Irish House of Commons in 1790 as a representative for county Down - although this is said in the text.

The table lists him as having been elected to represent Limavady in 1798 - I suspect though he never took up this seat as at the same time he was re-elected to County Down. The Limavady seat was perhaps a hedge against his possible failure to retain his Down seat.

If my supposition is correct Limavady would perhaps be best removed from the table. Certainly Down should be there.

Ned of the Hills 217.155.193.205 (talk) 08:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Byron's epitath

The article sources the following version from [3].

Posterity will ne'er survey

A nobler grave than this:

Here lie the bones of Castlereagh:

Stop, traveller, and piss.

There is another version that, I personally think, is more likely to be correct:

Posterity will ne'er survey

A nobler scene than this.

Here lie the bones of Castlereagh.

Stop, traveller, and piss.

A quick Google comparison turns up ~370 hits for "grave" and ~250 hits for "scene". 87.234.117.197 (talk) 19:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

GA Sweeps: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing Sweeps to determine if the article should remain a Good article. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have already made minor corrections to the article, but have included several points below that I believe need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA.

Needs inline citations:

1. "Stewart was born with a club foot which was successfully treated."
2. "In 1795, he crossed the floor to join the Tories, but his initial principles of reform and emancipation continued to hold a place in his political thought."
3. "On 12 August, Castlereagh committed suicide by cutting his throat with a letter opener."
4. The titles section needs a source for the various titles he held through his life.

Other issues:

1. This isn't required for GA, but I tagged File:Castlereagh signature.jpg and File:Castlereagh death.GIF for moving to Wikimedia Commons. If you have an account, consider moving the images so other language Wikipedias can benefit from the images.
2. "He nonetheless developed a reputation for integrity, consistency, and goodwill, which was perhaps unmatched by any diplomat of that era. His views on foreign policy were, unfortunately for him, ahead of his time." This looks to POV, and although it is followed by a source (the second statement), unless it is a quote, more sources will be needed. If it is a quote, state who said it and put quotation marks around the quoted sentences.
3. "A blue plaque is displayed at the entrance to Loring Hall, now a mental health facility and listed mansion, in commemoration of its most famous resident, who occupied the property from 1811." From 1811 until when? Instead of stating "most famous resident", reword to use his name unless this can be supported with a source.
4. The references are lacking details such as author, title, format, date, access date, etc. Please include all relevant details instead of including only the title for the web sites. Consider using the citation templates at WP:CITET which can help in formatting.

This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. If no progress is made, the article may be delisted, which can then later be renominated at WP:GAN. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 02:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Improved the details in the references using cite templates but it seem there are too few refs for the article; many longer paragraphs have few, often only one, reference which I doubt covers the complete detail. ww2censor (talk) 16:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Delisted

Unfortunately, since only a few of the minor issues were fixed, and likely need more than another week to address, I have regrettably delisted the article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. If the remaining issues are fixed, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN. With a little work, especially with a collaboration among the multiple WikiProjects, it should have no problems getting back up to GA status. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 17:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move - April 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

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Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Castlereagh → Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry – The most senior peerage title is the convention by which peers are named in wiki. Even if they are commonly known by another name, this is to be entered in the lead, rather than the article name. The Castlereagh re-naming was an earlier error of mine. Apologies. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Where did you get that idea? The most common name is the name we should use in the title. Powers ^T 22:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support — There never was a marquessate of Castlereagh. —Tamfang (talk) 01:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Probably could have been listed as an uncontroversial move. In answer to Powers's question (and to go slightly off topic), although we nearly always follow common name, nobility and royalty are a bit of an exception to this and we generally follow WP:NCROY in these articles (even though it's only a guideline, it has a large consensus and widespread usage). As an example, see Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, neither of which are actually their most common name. Jenks24 (talk) 14:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
  • However, also see Frederick North, Lord North as another example of a prime minister better known by his courtesy title than his later inherited title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
    • However however, "Marquess of Castlereagh" is neither common nor correct. —Tamfang (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Indeed, but Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh may be more appropriate. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
        • I have renamed the article to Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry as this can clearly be speedied (Marquess of Castlereagh being simply incorrect and therefore providing false information to our readers), but we still need to decide whether to keep it here or to move it back to Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh, which given the precedent and the fact that it was there until Laurel Lodged moved it I would now Support. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
  • NCROY exists only because of the relative obscurity of many members of the nobility. It was put in place because no common name can be easily determined for the vast numbers of barely-notable nobility for whom we have articles. It was not ever intended to override our WP:COMMONNAME guidelines, merely supplement it to provide structure and consistency when common names are hard to come by. See, for instance, Queen Victoria. Powers ^T 12:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Whose Stupid Idea?

Since when did the title 'Marquess of Castlereagh' exist? As I could have sworn that Viscount Castlereagh was still the junior title held by the Marquess's eldest son an awful long time after, as otherwise Churchill wouldn't have referred to "That idiot Charlie Londonderry", whose son sat in the Commons as Viscount Castlereagh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.148.189 (talk) 19:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

According to the last section, it was an admitted error by Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs). —Tamfang (talk) 06:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Retention permission.

Retain the current name per WP:NCROY. The exception of Lord North should not be followed. Indeed, that too should revert to the format of both his father and son. Also, propose to retain Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh and Lord Castlereagh as re-directs to this page. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Who says that WP:Common supercedes WP:NCROY? Where is that written? Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Retain per arguments given before. I don't see that wp:commonname supersedes wp:ncroy, and this way seems to be the case elsewhere. Boleyn (talk) 15:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• WP:COMMONNAME is part of WP:TITLE which is policy. NCROY is only a guideline. And why is this conversation so disjointed? Powers ^T 16:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• • Disjointed probably because there have been three styles in question (and no one has explicitly said so): Marquess of Londonderry, the subject's highest title; Viscount Castlereagh, the courtesy title under which he became famous; and Marquess of Castlereagh, a nonexistent title to which this article was for a time erroneously renamed. —Tamfang (talk) 21:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh. WP:NCPEER and WP:COMMONNAME are in agreement. Favonian (talk) 13:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

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Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry → Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh – According to WP:NCROY, where someone is better known by a courtesy title, this should be used, as with e.g. Lord North. PatGallacher (talk) 09:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

• Disagree Retain per arguments given before. I don't see that wp:commonname supersedes wp:ncroy, and this way seems to be the case elsewhere. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Reply NCROY clearly states: "When individuals became peers but are better known by a courtesy title, use that, e.g. Frederick North, Lord North (not 'Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guilford'), Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh (not 'Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry')." So this is actually a case of following NCROY, not disregarding it. The previous discussion was about moving away from "Marquess of Castlereagh", a title which was obviously incorrect. PatGallacher (talk) 19:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Yes, this isn't a case of common name against WP:ncroy - the name proposed is the one that WP:NCROY implies, so there shouldn't be any controversy about this. (If we were to apply common name, we would use Lord Castlereagh, which I would support even more strongly, but given the prevailing superstition against doing anything so sensible, I'll confine myself to supporting the proposal.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I'm not sure I would strongly oppose Lord Castlereagh myself, but the present title is a clear improvement on the previous one. PatGallacher (talk) 17:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Persed

Note 4: "Stewart ... persed his son to stand for the seat ..." Did you mean "pursed" (although that would be verbing a noun)? "pursued"? "dispersed"? Art LaPella (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Responsibility for repressive measures

The second para contains the statement "Much more than prime minister Lord Liverpool, he was responsible for the repressive domestic measures."

As far as I can see, there's no evidence in the article to support this (nor in the standard biographies). It would be true to say, as it implies in the 'Decline and Death' section that his role as Leader of the House led to an association in the public mind with repressive acts, but he was no more personally responsible than any other member of cabinet, and rather less than Addington (and, probably, Liverpool).

Will edit the original sentence if no one objects — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.174.69 (talk) 09:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

More ghostys

Elliott O'Donnell in his book on Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/files/40823/40823-h/40823-h.htm describes a "yellow boy" who showed him how he would kill himself. It's in chapter iii. 104.229.139.131 (talk) 04:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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House of Orange

Castlereagh was instrumental in making the House of Orange kings of the Netherlands. One can argue that without his interference in 1813 this wouldn't have happened. I see it is not mentioned in the article. JRB-Europe (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Change Citation Style

I would like to reorganise the way sources are cited in the article. I would like to see a list of cited sources and I would like to get rid of the "Further reading" section by citing the sources given there if possible. I would like to use the Sfn template in the text and provide quotes and URLs where possible. I would like to use the Citation template in the list of sources and again give URLs where possible. The references would become much easier to verify as the reader would be in most cases be able to read the relevant part of the source himself with a couple of mouse clicks. I think I need to call for a consensus @Dunnettreader: @Rjenson: @AndySimpson: @Tryde: @Howcheng: @Dave6: before implementing the changes. If there are no objections, I will consider that such a consensus exists and will make the corresponding changes after a delay of a month. Johannes Schade (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

No objection here. —howcheng {chat} 16:51, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

The Radiant Boy

This legend seems to be associated with Ballyshannon in Donegal: https://ballyshannon-musings.blogspot.com/2017/11/a-famous-ballyshannon-ghost-story.html Corby Castle in Cumbria has a similar legend, although no Castlereagh connection: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/hauntings/corby-castle/ Shtove (talk) 11:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Castlereagh, an "Ulster Scottish statesman"?

His grandfather, Alexander might be described as an Ulster-Scot, but given his maternal line, education, conversion to the Established Church, Castlereagh doesn't really benefit from such a description, especially as it was not current or understood in his circle. In some senses of the term, Anglo-Irish might also be misleading, but a "Irish and British statement" doesn't fit either, as he was only a statesman--whether as Chief Secretary for Ireland, or as Foreigh Secretary--in the direct service of the British government.ManfredHugh (talk)

Ethincally he is indeed best described as Ulster Scots, while belonging to the class of landed gentry (later aristocracy). His nationality, however, can be described as nothing other than British. Gaelicbow 14:54 Feb 3, 2024 (UTC)