User talk:Hyacinth/Music III

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McClary on Beethoven and rape

Hi Hyacinth,

After all this time, I've finally posted an expanded section on the McClary-Beethoven-rape controversy. I did my very best to make it NPOV. But since I've already identified myself to you as a person offended by McClary's approach, I think it would be a good idea if you take a look.

Yours very truly, Opus33 17:23, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Had you finished your work on this article? It's been listed for deletion within minutes of appearing!Dr Zen 05:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Béla Bartók and Wikiquote

  • Halló Hyacinth, I could see that you started q:en:Béla Bartók. From Béla Bartók to q:en:Béla Bartók there are Wikipedia:Multiple Redirects: q:Béla Bartók, q:Bela Bartok, q:Bela Bartók. To my understanding, the main article is misplaced. q:Béla Bartók or q:Bartók Béla (Hungarians write the family name first) should be the main article. Regards Gangleri | Th | T 21:35, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)
    • As to swapping the order, nonsenseNonsense! Yes, they do that in Hungarian, but this is an English work. Their names are uniformly transposed in English; i took courses for 3 years running under an adult-immigrant Hungarian-American who never mentioned it; the only place i've ever heard it publicly done in English was the ever-pretentious Robert J. Lurtsema showing off his ability to pronounce and accent the vowels correctly in Kodaly Zoltan; Bartok Bela and Kodaly Zoltan are not even redirs; yes, the Hary Janos Suite, but
      "Hary Janos" "Zoltan Kodaly"
    gets abt 9k Google hits and
    • "Hary Janos" "Kodaly Zoltan"
    gets abt 1k, of which the first 10 either have "Kodaly, Zoltan" in the excerpt or "Zoltan Kodaly" in the page title or both (didn't bother looking in more detail).
    --Jerzy(t) 20:30, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

Please do not carry on conversations with other users on my talk page. That is why you all have talk pages. Thanks!


Your Habib Hassan Touma quote on Arab is good, but could you add a bibliography entry for it at the bottom? - Mustafaa 00:26, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Picardy third

Picardy third/Tierce de Picardie --? Dysprosia 10:32, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Degree (disambiguation) and Degree

Thanks for your comments. Please can you adjust these in the way you suggest as and when you are ready. It occurs to me that as I'm tidying links to all the degree articles, I should take these articles into account at the same time. Thanks again, Ian Cairns 00:36, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Modular arithmetic

Thank you for your addition. It had been me who removed the applications part. Now, I am all for applications, and am happy with your recent addition. The reason for my original deletion was that the article had become a huge mess, and among other things the applications section had been inserted right in the middle of the article, before the main idea of the article was even developed :( So I just reverted the article to a much earlier version.

I am not sure I like the place of your external link, looks kind of unnatural, also in that subsection thing. I don't know how to put it better though. Do you think there is a way to put the external link at the very bottom, and make a footnote to it in the applications section? Maybe this is not a good idea, but still, I would like to ask you to take a look again at that external link and see if it can be put in a better way (better place). User:Oleg Alexandrov 18:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing my signature. A tilda makes a big difference. Oleg Alexandrov 22:40, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Islamic music

Hullo Hyacinth,

I'm a musical ignoramus who nevertheless enjoys listening to Arabic, Persian, Afghan, and Indian pop music. All of those are areas that you would probably include under Islamic music. There are, indeed, significant similarities between the musical styles and, I understand, the underlying musical structures (the maqam, the raga, the dastgah).

However, I'm somewhat troubled by the category "Islamic music". I can see the various styles as being linked both by musical contacts BEFORE the Arabs erupted out of Arabia, and by contacts since then ... contacts facilitated by conquest and trade. But I'm not sure that I would describe the music as Islamic per se, given that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Parsis were all playing the same kind of secular music. Describing it as Islamic strikes me as somehow just OFF or WRONG.

Except Sufi music, but even that employed widespread "Central Asian" or "Silk Road" styles for Islamic ends.

Also, the usual Wikipedia spelling is Qur'an, not Koran.

Perhaps it would be better to retitle the article as Islam and music? Or write an article about the commonalities in Silk Road or Central Asian music?

I don't have strong opinions about these matters -- nor do I have the requisite background in music theory to understand web pages like this one:


on Persian musical theory. Let's discuss these things -- and perhaps drag in a few of the sensible Muslims on Wikipedia, like Ifaqeer or Mustafaa. I've worked with them on several Islamic articles and they're both reasonable people. Zora 05:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hyacinth, that quote relates to ARAB music, not to your so-called Muslim music. I don't feel that you've really engaged with my concerns.

Would you describe European music as "Christian" music? It was mostly written by Christians, and a significant portion of it was intended for church services. But that doesn't mean that European music is necessarily "Christian".

I like to listen to Indian filmi. Muslim or Hindu music? The categories just don't apply. It's INDIAN music. Zora 18:43, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I ended up spending HOURS rewriting the article to make it clear that there's a distinction between regional musical styles and devotional music. I added links to sites with sound samples.

I also deleted most of your writing on the Sufis. There was so much in it that was wrong or misleading. There are MANY Sufi orders, not just one, Sufism coalesced rather than being founded in one swell foop, the Mevlevi rituals are not representative of all Sufi rituals, and naats are Punjabi rather than Turkish, as implied by your description of the whirling dervishes.

I set up a link to an unwritten article on Sufi music, which might be worth doing in detail. There would be room there to talk about regional musical styles (Punjabi, Persian, Kurdish, Egyptian, Berber, Turkish, Albanian, etc.) and also about the spread of the various orders, some of which were purely local and some of which spanned continents. Each order would have its own characteristic rituals and musical forms. If you want to write about this, I'd recommend a lot of research and working with Ifaqeer, who IS a Sufi (though he's very quiet about it, in his modest way).

I really don't like being at loggerheads with you, since you strike me as an intelligent and sincere editor, and also because you know a whole heck of a lot more about music theory than I do. There's a lot more to be said technically about the modes and the melismatic vocal styles of Middle Eastern and South Asian music, and I don't even have the vocabulary for it. I hope I haven't pissed you off, and that we can work together productively. Zora 03:00, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

sawt is sout?

Do you know if the sawt referenced (to Toumas) as a secular genre at Arab music is the same thing as the sout referred to at music of Kuwait and music of Bahrain? If so, I don't know which transliteration is better, but they should be standardized. If not (or in any case), good work on your recent improvements to that and Muslim music! Tuf-Kat 22:23, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I'll change the uses to sawt then, as my reference uses some odd spellings in other cases, and googling reveals more likely relevant hits for sawt than sout. Tuf-Kat 00:16, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Salah, Adhan as revised by H. 2/2/05

I had to revert some of your changes to salah because putting the muezzin in the fard sentence was ambiguous (nah, plain wrong). The remaining ones were kinda good.

Actually, work badly needed on salah is to merge its content with the prayer section of the Five pillars of Islam article. But if that's not your cup of tea, somebody will.

(Good old elpincha 21:28, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC))


Greetings! I've left a few notices about regarding categorization of the music articles, but I'm not sure where to put them to get anyone's attention; currently my thoughts are sitting at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music#Categorization. Since you seem to be on a categorization push yourself, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:41, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Music clips

Hello Hyacinth

I'm undertaking a new music project and would invite your comments on my talk page. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:27, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)


I found someone has removed the content of article Musical composition. As you were the last to edit it before that, I hope you will fix it, if it was not meant to be like this. --Blondel 12:09, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good work

Your recent edits on History of music were excellent. Good job :) →Raul654 23:18, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Template messages - Informational

I see you've created Wikipedia:Template messages/Informational containing templates for Indian classical music and American roots music. I'm wondering whether these templates shouldn't actually be listed at Wikipedia:Navigational templates instead ({{Americanrootsmusic}} already is), since their main purpose is ease of navigation between related articles. See also my comment at Wikipedia talk:Template messages#Navigational templates creeping into table. - dcljr 00:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pages like this should be under the appropriate Wikiproject only. Wikipedia:Template messages and its subpages are for more genereic template types, used across many subject areas. -- Netoholic @ 03:35, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

Native American music

Nice work on Native American music and Pueblo music. I added a bit more after noticing your source is the same author as a book I recently picked up. Mine's a bit newer than yours, but he doesn't do a tribal breakdown, except for Arapaho music as an example. I'm not sure why you kept the Zuni and Hopi redirects in the infobox, but I have put them in parentheses to save space and added Arapaho and Navajo links. Is this agreeable to you? Tuf-Kat 04:17, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the pleasant greeting

Nice to get your friendly welcome message Hyacinth. It certainly has made me feel a lot friendlier towards this wikithing.

I'm learning how to suppress my outrage at some of the absolute tosh written as authoritative knowledge, and perhaps even begining to enjoy seeing things from other perspectives. Although I must confess i do have a bit of trouble biting my lip (or should that be keyboard) at some of the more american centric entries - the cowboy/cowhand issue is a case in point.

Hopefully I'll end up a well rounded wikiperson.

I have just spent some time trying to clarify some of the Arts related definitions - the subject is close to my heart (and livelihood) in particular 'visual art' and 'fine art' there was a lot of guesswork going on on these pages. then when i got here I noticed that there is a broader issue to do with the arts definitions. not suprising really it is one of the most misunderstood words - if indeed anyone really has an understanding of it.

part of the problem stems from the fact that art seems to mean seperate things for consumers and producers. it has a specialist proffesional language, perhaps even many, for the producers within the various disciplines, these languages are as important to production as a plumbers or a computer programmers. but these terms are used differently by the consumers such as the historians or the critics, who have a professional language of their own, and then again the terms are used even more hazily by the interested onlookers or art appreciators. I hope that the few changes that I have made are helpfull. It has made me try to map the landscape of these tricky relationships, perhaps when ive made sense of it ill be able to help iron out some of the really bad mismatches.

There is a real reluctance in the art pages to allow for overlap. for example; the term 'performing arts' does have a specific meaning, but many performing art forms are also visual art forms.

pah... look im sorry to labour this on my first message to you so ill go away and try to bring some clarity to the subject, a little bit at a time.

take care.

DavidP 04:02, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

European Classical Music

After some thought, I am with your decision to label certain traditions "European", though the more usual phrase for European is "European art music", with proper placement on the disambiguation page, all should be well for the reader looking for "classical music".


Stirling Newberry 23:07, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)


While Mesopotamian music may have cantillation, the Cantillation article itself had nothing about Mesopotamian cantillation in it. See also is generally reserved for topics related to or which expand on information given in the article. Jayjg (talk) 19:54, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Maracatu references

Hi Hyacinth-- just letting you know that I've put back in the references that were added to the maracatu page because I know those sources and they are legitimate. The book does have an article on maracatu and the Web page is good. In fact I'm glad the person took the trouble to add them. Thanks for the vigilance, though! Mona-Lynn 08:15, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

European Classical Music

tell me if you need help arguing for it. I fear that like most "decentrification" proposals it will meet with resistence. Stirling Newberry 12:54, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Power of Wikipedia

I've been a user with a login for a long time, and finally the other day I saw an obvious error in an entry (hum) and decided I would quickly fix it. I thought I could do a better job, but due to time constraints I just chopped out the error.

This morning I came to see if I could improve it, and found Hyacinth had redone it very well. I touch an article, someone notices, and improves upon it.

I love this place, and I think I finally "get it".

--Douglips 17:02, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Media: NonFreeImageRemoved.svg Tag

Yes, I agree. When I first started, the difference between {{gfdl}} and {{PD-user}} wasn't apparent to me, but now I see that they are different. I see you have already changed the tag, so I'll go back through my edits to make sure all of same type of mistakes are corrected. Sorry about that.

While we're on the subject, are all governmental images (in the U.S.) released into the public domain? I know that all federal works are, but how about images made by states, counties, and cities/towns? It would seem like they would be, but one never knows... Thanks, Bratsche 19:11, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I think the fair use tag is used only when an image is copyrighted. Is this the case with the image? I noticed you had a couple images of music, etc. If you don't claim a copyright, then a GFDL would be more approriate, as you orginally stated. I'll tag them for you, if you want. Just let me know. Bratsche 19:27, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
Well, the fair use template states that "the image is copyrighted". But if the song itself is copyrighted, then probably the actual music is too. Is that the case with "A Hard Day's Work" ? Bratsche(talk) 20:12, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Music pictures

I'm sorry about replacing those music pictures-- I really should have asked first. I guess you can do whatever you want with the old ones. And I'm going to go through the new ones in the next day or two and add credit to you. --humbly, bdesham 03:40, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Pitch is a widely used term in the engineering field in applications that have nothing to do with music, e.g. in speech compression, digital speech, and speech encryption. Having the only listing for it be to an article which is mostly about the musical meaning is completely implausible. I will write a separate "pitch (sound) article and put it back in the disambig page. Noel (talk) 13:59, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Music School

Have you studied music through any music programs? If so, where and how did you enter it? I want to study music, but I'm afraid that since I did not receive any form of formal classical study I will not be accepted. Jaberwocky6669 23:41, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

  • I did not take any music classes in High school though I wanted to. I took 10 years of guitar lessons, but I finally realized that I wanted to play another instrument. I didn't advance too well with the guitar lol. I think I want to play a bowed instrument like a chello or violin.


I'd like your feedback on the Intervals entry before I take any further action. Noetica has properly taken me to task for substantially revising an article which was on the request-for-discussion list, plus made a number of valid editorial comments. Before I make any more changes to the page, though, I'd like to hear from you, since you made the RFC request. --Wahoofive 06:41, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hello to you too!

Thanks for the message. Now, I have questions.

You seem to write mostly about more general music topics. Have you had much musical training? And do you know much about traditional ("classical") music pieces individually? (I tend to write about individiual pieces.)

I, myself, have been playing the cello for a while now, and I play chamber music with friends, I play in several orchestras, I play in musical shows ("Broadway" shows), and also I love to collect and listen to recordings, usually on CD.

Last question. How do you use those separate sub-page things? When you have like the User:Hyacinth/Music thing?


(Hapless Hero 14:30, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC))


I'm baffled why you're so opposed to the term "dominant" in reference to Gregorian modes. I've never heard the word "cofinal," even in the class on Gregorian chant I took in graduate school. Although that word appears on the Mode page, it's only in an "also called" context; "dominant" is used as the principal term. "Dominant" is the word used in the Harvard Dictionary in this context.

I don't have a problem with having this in a "See also" section on the Dominant (music) page, since it is certainly a lesser usage, but I can't support the "more often cofinal" phrasing. --Wahoofive 17:16, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On section deletions in "Music" article

Hyacinth: I am the person who has twice inserted the section for "Music in Society", including "Music and Culture", "Music as Entertainment", and "Music Industry". You have twice deleted it. Please explain. I know that the sections were not complete, BUT, they are relevant and I would say "significant" to any discussion of the topic "Music". THUS, I would request that the sections not be deleted. I am looking for individuals who can enhance these sections if I am not able to. Thank you. I look forward to your explanation. Gentlegeek 19:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interval tables

The tables under the individual interval pages look nice, but in some cases the ratios don't correspond with the ones mentioned in the article. In a few cases there are several choices or ratio. Also, it would be nice to include meantone intervals, something I'd been planning for the Interval (music) page but hadn't gotten around to yet. —Wahoofive | Talk 23:40, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

nice work

Nice work last night! I see you're using the same book I have been, for early music (Hoppin). Happy editing! Antandrus 15:33, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think living without a car would be heaven... Should you find a more recent, thorough book on medieval music, let me know; Hoppin is badly out-of-date and I'm finding lots of things, especially in biographies, that got corrected by 1990s-era research. The general stuff on rhythmic modes, Gregorian chant and so forth all seems to be solid to me though. Antandrus 02:38, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Prisoner

If you are familiar with the television show, could you take a look at my comment on Talk:The Prisoner? I'm trying to track down the names of the tunes and match them with their classical (or traditional) counterparts. It's a trivial matter, but interesting if you know the score. --Viriditas | Talk 10:07, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)


I replyed on the talk page. – ABCD 20:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Template:Edit summary (reply →)

There has existed for a long while now Template:summary, and now there's Template:editsummarynew as well. Do we really need all of them? Reply to thread by editing this section. Oh, and your Talk page is 40kb long. Thanks, Alphax τεχ 14:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From my experience with Template:Edit summary, Template:Summary would be ill recieved and is arguably not supported by policy. Hyacinth 20:05, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Funny thing is, Template:Summary reads exactly like Wikipedia:Edit summary, but I agree that it's a bit strong. What do think of it now? Alphax τεχ 01:09, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Really "exactly like"? One said, "please remember edit summaries". The other said, "Use an edit summary or you will be reverted as a vandal!" Hyacinth 20:02, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ok, the first paragraphs (as they stand) are the same. Have you Template:summary? You might be reverted. Alphax τεχ 08:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, after all this, all I can say is: I wish that some of the stuff in User:ABCD/monobook.js was standard. I'm using it, and the edit summary warning is quite cool. Alphax τεχ 09:38, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Category: musicians

Might want to change your category to [[Category:Wikipedian musicians|Hyacinth]] so it will sort correctly. —Wahoofive | Talk 21:07, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For creating music images, I'm just taking screen shots and then cropping (and sometimes tweaking) them in Photoshop (closing up blank staff space, for example). I get crappy results with PNG so I've been making them all GIF. Mac OSX takes PDF screen shots by default, so they have anti-aliasing. —Wahoofive | Talk 21:45, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tone deaf

I read through your recent comments on Tone deaf, and I've edited the article quite a bit. Though you appear to be on leave of indeterminate length right now, I'd appreciate it if you took a look when you return. (If you're reading this, I'm assuming you have or will) Matthewcieplak 03:14, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Musical montage


Hi Hyacinth, I left a question at talk:scordatura re. Biber - could you help out (or do you know anyone who could)? --Francis Schonken 8 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)

RE:Image:Wazn wahdah sayirah.PNG

Hi Hyacinth. Sorry about that, I was about to replace the pui tag with PD-self but I had a powercut last night and if you look at WP:PUI I lost all the images I was in the middle of placing on there. I've placed a tag on the image description page; if you release it under a different status, then please feel free to replace it. Thanks Craigy Flag of the United Kingdom.svg (talk) 13:47, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

PostModern Music

I would like you to consider certifying the RFC on Nicholas Cimini [2] as it is very clear that as soon as the RFC expires he intends to go right back to an edit war, and the other user on the talk page is advising him to go trolling and that he won't face any sanctions so long as he only attacks one person. Stirling Newberry 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a witch hunt. Please discuss your issues in a grown-up manner.--Nicholas 15:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have no more interest in contributing toward that article. It's clear that certain wikipedians are not going to co-operate.--Nicholas 15:51, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Erm, I'm definitely not "advising him to go trolling and that he won't face any sanctions so long as he only attacks one person." I actually had a minor conflict with Nicholas on eugenics. Misrepresenting my position won't attract you any sympathy. Please read [talk page] again (Of course, it's possible you weren't referring to me, in which case I retract this statement). Flammifer 16:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Please talk to each other on your own talk pages. If you're not talking to me this is the wrong place. Hyacinth 21:18, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


This transcription is inaccurate; it should be in the key of Gb and in 5/4 time (and if it's to be representative of how it was most often played by Brubeck, the second low Eb should be the same octave as the first). Image:Take_five_intro.gif is accurate and should be used. ¦ Reisio 11:36, 2005 July 27 (UTC)

Image:Take_Five_introduction.png is superior for a variety of reasons. It is in the prefered format (.png), credits its predecessors, and it is supported by a citation. Hyacinth 21:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The format is trivial, and it has no predecessors, so can't possibly credit them. It is missing a copyright tag, which to me means User:SWB should be left a message to add one (and maybe even reupload with a PNG version). Don't you think the accuracy of the image is of more import than a vague copyright status? Worth giving it a little temporary leeway? If not I can upload a public domain PNG version to Commons right now and end the debate. I'd have done it already, but I've been waiting to get a similar jazz font. ¦ Reisio 01:03, 2005 July 28 (UTC)

Here we go: Image:Take_Five-piano_intro.png

¦ Reisio 02:41, 2005 July 28 (UTC)

Inharmonicity revisited

According to the history of the inharmonic article, you have a lot invested in it. I've suggested on its discussion page that I'd like to (a) incorporate into it information I've put into stretched tuning and (b) move it to "Inharmonicity". I'd like to solicit your response to stretched tuning before I do that.

Sorry to hear about your low siutation; hope that clears up. Veg0matic 20:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


Image:Iron Butterfly In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida Riff.mp3 listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Iron Butterfly In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida Riff.mp3, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —MetsBot 19:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC) I made the file into a OGG file, as per Wikipedia rules. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


There's a question you may be able to answer posted on the Wikipedia:Reference desk (about Thelonius Monk being a student of Vincent Persichetti). - Nunh-huh 22:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Something wrong with Arabian comma

The numbers on Arabian comma make no sense. See the talk page. —Keenan Pepper 08:35, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Swing rhythm

Please see Talk:Swing rhythm. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this. Andrewa 19:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)