Talk:Catahoula Leopard Dog

Lede Image

The main photo sucks it looks like a retarded catahoula change it to one that as t least make them look cool I have added a comment at the top of the source for the article asking editors not to change the lede photo without prior discussion. This courtesy should be followed for all photo changes but is especially important for the lede. Changes to the lede photo should be discussed and the consensus followed. The lede photo is especially important since it is what people see when they first visit to the page. It should be representative of the breed and of high quality and should not be changed for reasons of vanity. It also must comply with the image policy as must all images on any page in our encyclopedia. Thanks, Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 19:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

As discussed in the Photos Returned section, I am replacing the lede image of this article with an image that is better representative of the subject (i.e. the photo will show a Blue Merle Catahoula, which is the coat type most commonly associated with the breed), higher resolution, well-focused and lit, and which depicts the subject on a stark, white background that better focuses attention on the subject (the dog). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phattums (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a new main photo. The current photo does not show the build of the breed (a photo of a catahoula standing would be better), it needs to show the tail which is an important signature to the breed. Also, the dog in the current photo is not holding its ears correctly. Most catahoulas (breed standard) have drop ears. So I think the main photo should show that as well. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchcatahoula (talk • contribs) 21:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sasquatchcatahoula. If you have a photo that you think it better then please put it out on wikimedia commons and post a link here so we can check it out. The current lede image shows a beautiful animal but that is not really a requirement for a lede photo--although it helps! The current photo is not mine and I do not have an ownership interest in it or this page, but other editors on this page in the past have tried to place photos in the article with the editor's name in a watermark on the photo. This is not permitted by wikipedia policy. Also, we absolutely cannot use a copyrighted photo without the copyright owner's permission, which for all practical purposes means we need the photo to be in the public domain. I would suggest you post the photo here and see what shakes out of the discussion. If there is no discussion then be bold and make your change. Cheers, Dusty|💬|You can help! 18:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

It’s important to note that naturally bob-tailed Catahoulas are not uncommon, and can be registered, as it’s naturally-occurring. It will, however, be seen as a fault in the show ring. 104.244.117.191 (talk) 09:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok, great! We have 8 catahoulas right now. All different colors. Do you want to lede image to be a blue leopard? And I agree the dog shown is beautiful. Its just hard for people to see what a houla really looks like if its not standing. But we have a yellow leopard, blue leopards, red leopards, grey leopards and a black solid as well as a cur brown solid. Just let me know what you would be interested in and I can take new photos this weekend.

Hi, Sasquatchcatahoula. Please sign your updates to talk pages with four tildas at the end of the post, like this:

Catahoulas...blah blah blah...catahoulas! ~~~~

This will cause your signature and a timestamp to be appended and will prevent your own talk page from getting spammed by the robot that autosigns (eventually) if you forget. With regards to the photo, I would defer to the judgement of other editors on this page who have expertise in the area (my expertise is more around wiki policy and not Catahoulas, which in fact I can just barely spell). One of the other editors mentioned that blue catahoulas were the most common so if that's true then I vote for a blue. I am hoping there are other editors watching this page though because I feel more comfortable with a group consensus. Thanks, Dusty|💬|You can help! 20:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Sasquatchcatahoula, whatever good quality shots you can get of your dogs, and are yours to release with a free use licence, we'll be happy to have them at Commons:Category:Catahoula Leopard Dog. (As a colouration genetics nerd, I'd be especially happy to see all the colours you mentioned :P) The current lead image is the nicest I could find at the time (this one would have been a great lead, but it's just so unusably tiny]]), but as soon as a good conformational shot appears, it should become the new lead. --Pitke (talk) 08:30, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Purdy; female catahoula. Blue leopard 1yr old

Here is a photo of one of our blue leopards.

Michonne; female catahoula puppy.

Here is one of our grey leopard puppy. I actually own & operate a catahoula keenel (Sasquatch Catahoulas) so I consider myself an expert as well. But I always say; you keep learning every day because nobody knows everything. But I know Don Abney as well as other catahoula experts who I learn from like Mrs. Sherry Brando who has been breeding catahoulas for over 25yrs and she has famous dogs, so... if you ever need to know something about the breed I would go to them. They know pretty much everything you need to know about the breed. Thank you guys so much for being so nice & helpful to me and if I can help in any way please let me know. And sorry I could not take more pictures, I will try again next weekend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchcatahoula (talk • contribs) 00:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles/Sasquatchcatahoula Here are pics of all the colors — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchcatahoula (talk • contribs) 23:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

So is it ok for me to change the lede Image? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchcatahoula (talk • contribs) 17:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Support. But don't use the puppy in the lede (even though it's undeniably a cute pic.) Dusty|💬|You can help! 21:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I snapped a photo of my buddy's Catahoula last month that I think would work much better as the lede photo. Very high quality image showing a blue merle coated Catahoula in a very nice profile position, which shows the physique of the breed as well as the so-called "question mark tail" that is also typical of the breed. Please let me know what you think and feel free to swap this image in if you agree. (the one in front of all the ferns)

the contested lede image

CharlesFuchs1 (talk) 18:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think a more illustrative image is necessary, an image that represents a better example of the breed. A quick look at the official breed standard by the United Kennel Club can help us (Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog Official Standard by the United Kennel Club). I recommend one of these images just below: Adventurous36 (talk) 00:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

• 
  recommended image 1
• 
  recommended image 2
• 
  recommended image 3

Adventurous36 (talk) 22:24, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

User has suggested using one of his copies of another editor's upload three times now, most recently here. I'll point he other discussions here since this seems to be the best locations for the discussion.. 03:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Why are you uploading your own copies of other editors' images? If we use one of these images we would just use the originals. Meters (talk) 02:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC) moved from Talk:Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog#Main Image

And what's your justification for stating that your image is more representative image? And please don't keep posting the same material in multiple places.on the talk page. Meters (talk) 03:05, 9 June 2019 (UTC) moved from Talk:Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog#Main Image

Meters, I think this sort of thing is done all the time where the original photographer (Ricsike68)'s work is more closely cropped by other users ( Adventurous36) before use on an article.

That said, I think Adventurous could be faulted for failing to explictly mention the username Ricsike68 as well as the author's disclosed real name. It might have been better if Adventurous used the "upload a new version of this file" apparatus rather than upload a different file.

Also as per WP:MOSIMAGE, the dog should be posed facing towards your left if it is intended for a lead image. (Cf. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Murasaki_Shikibu/Archive_2#RFC: Lead image) --Kiyoweap (talk) 22:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge reliably sourced content. Cavalryman (talk) 09:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

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Discussion

As I stated on Talk:Catahoula bulldog, this dog type is a mixed breed with no reliable way to verify parentage or ancestry. Without the ability to verify parentage, there is no way to know an animal's genetic predisposition, temperament, or inheritable physical characteristics. The only significant breed that is noticeable in this cross is the Catahoula Leopard dog which is dependent on coloring and the occasional bulldog characteristics that may or may not show. Sight id is undependable as proven by DNA tests and the widespread misidentifying of dogs that have led to wrongful euthanizing. In this particular crossbreed, the percentage of American Bulldog remains undetermined short of DNA testing; therefore, this particular cross fails notability as a standalone article. It is yet to be determined with regards to how much we should actually merge into this article, if anything. One of the many questionable internet sources (which appear to be the only sources available) about the Catahoula bulldog states: With any mixed-breed, a dog can be a different percentage of each breed; therefore all of the characteristics of both breeds must be taken into consideration. You never know which natural traits a dog will or will not be born with. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:10, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support. Given the lack of RS that is the logical solution. Cavalryman (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2019 (UTC).
• Support as op. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support William Harristalk 21:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Even major breeds with 100+ years of history have various sub-breeds or divisions, and we do not treat them in independent articles, with only rare exceptions (usually because of one or more kennel clubs "forking" them into their own breed). Frankly, any time I see a stub (or a repetitive near-copy-paste of a more general article) for some little-known breed variant, when I go looking I find that it's usually been created for promotional purposes by someone with a fiduciary interest.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  What's this? The Mac is back! The self-imposed exile has concluded. It has now been two weeks Atsme - it is time to put it out of its misery. William Harristalk 23:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

  Yeah, I'm back, and you already want to put me out of my misery. Ah-ooooo...  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support This is nowhere near what is required to have an article. In fact, I don't even think there is much in Catahoula bulldog that needs merging. A simple redirect would probably suffice. A completely unsourced article that starts off "The Catahoula bulldog is believed to be a crossbreed created by crossing the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog and the American Bulldog..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meters (talk • contribs) 23:56, November 7, 2019 (UTC)

  Yep. This is backyard-breeder mongrel/cross stuff at best. While we can have articles like labradoodle when a cross is sufficiently well-established and popular and verging on standardized (even being bred to itself, and thus on the way to becoming a breed) because of significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources (WP:GNG), this just isn't it. We have allegations that some people have made such a cross, but so what? It's neither reliable or nor notable. It's not even interesting. Unless you try something with utterly incompatible body structure (like perhaps Great Dane × Chihuahua) any dog crossbreed is liable to be viable, and the majority of dogs running around in the world are in fact mixed mutts.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with SMcCandlish, a simple redirect would suffice, there is nothing reliably sourced at Catahoula bulldog and so nothing should be merged here. Cavalryman (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 8 November 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

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Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog → Catahoula Leopard Dog – WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE. Detailed rationale below.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

The previous RM had little input, and we now have more information in the article. Usage of "Catahoula Leopard Dog" dwarfs the longer name by more than a 4:1 ratio in a Web-wide search and a staggering 65:1 ratio (!) when constrained to Google News search: [1] and [2], versus [3] and [4]. There is no question whether the shorter name is more common.

Next, we have two competing registries using slightly different names for this dog breed. The dominant one is American Kennel Club, pretty much the only such organization in the US most people have ever even heard of. The other organization, United Kennel Club, is comparatively minor. AKC has a much stronger reputation both in dog circles and in the general public (i.e., is a more reliable source).

Third, while I might have once supported lower-casing "dog", we had an RfC at VPPOL, between these RMs, which concluded to capitalize [all parts of] the formal names of standardized animal breeds. Now that we have multiple breed standards cited, we see that both of them include and capitalize "Dog" as part of this breed's name in their published standards (because "Leopard" is intolerably ambiguous without it; cf. American Quarter Horse which is not a coin, and Norwegian Forest Cat which is not a woodland :-). While the lower-casing instinct was a reasonable one under MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS without better evidence for a capital D, we now have good evidence for a capital D.

Fourth, it's been my experience that when people try to over-disambiguate a simple breed name into an unnecessarily long and cluttered one, it's because they're trying for a "new breed" article that they don't want to see merged or deleted; i.e., by making "Catahoula Leopard Dog" into "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog", it opens the door to more WP:NFT stuff [see merge thread above], like an alleged "Texas Catahoula Leopard Dog", or whatever.

In closing, the fact that the junior registry went with a long name to please a politician (our article says) is no reason for Wikipedia to do so (WP:OFFICIALNAME).
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
@Meters and Dicklyon: pinging the only two participants in the original RM.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support Sounds good to me. Meters (talk) 03:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support William Harristalk 03:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Cavalryman (talk) 04:19, 8 November 2019 (UTC).
• Support as I don't understand the whole set of arguments but SMcCandlish generally does his homework thoroughly. Dicklyon (talk) 06:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

If an election is held to select the President of Wikipedia, he has my vote! William Harristalk 20:32, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. I had one. Personally, I think the most common name when talking with other dog owners was "what's that?" 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 21:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

  Ha ha! I got that a lot with both my Cymric cat and Bengal cat. Or, "Is that a lynx? And how'd you get an ocelot?"  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"mistakenly referred to as a cur"

Hello! I'm a little unclear on why the article says that this breed is "mistakenly referred to as a cur." As an American working dog originating from a landrace of hunting and herding dogs, and based on it's general appearance, it meets the common definition of a cur, and is actually listed in the Cur article as an example of a cur. I understand that "cur" is not part it's UKC/AKC designation, but the breed predates recognition by those organizations, several breeds are considered cur dogs even if that is not part of their listed name among kennel clubs. Additionally, if we do want to conform to kennel club usage the AKC does list "catahoula cur" as another name for the breed: https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/catahoula-leopard-dog/

Thanks

14:09, 10 May 2020 (UTC)Bracewell94 (talk)

also worth noting that many articles about dogs breeds, species of animal, etc mention other names besides the one chosen as the title for the article. The way it's phrased in this article appears to be editorializing and a violation of WP:NPOV. Would be more appropriate to simply state what the breed is called and by whom.

Thanks-- Michael

Bracewell94 (talk) 16:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Just made a different attempt at revising this that I think complies with the comment left on the last reversion, if anyone feels that this one also needs to be reversed I would appreciate the learning opportunity of having them explain!

Bracewell94 (talk) 12:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, in order to be included as another name, "cur" would need to be in wide usage in multiple reliable sources. We do not have that at this time, we have one instance on a breed website.

Additionally, I have reduced the Lineage section. The fantasies portrayed by breed clubs about the possible origins of dogs does not warrant reflecting in an online encyclopedia unless WP:RELIABLE, WP:SECONDARY sources support it based on evidence, not claim. William Harristalk 23:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

PS: That should not deter you from seeking use of the word "cur" for this dog in WP:RELIABLE, WP:SECONDARY sources, perhaps in a couple of books on dogs where the authors state that another name is cur - that is how this encyclopedia is built. (Just avoid the mass produced "Training your X" books where the author just changes the name of the dog for marketing purposes and it is the same book under different breed names.) Happy hunting! William Harristalk 21:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)