Talk:Étienne Brûlé

To do to improve

The article is a good start focused only on French influence on the North American continent, but considering he is a major figure in the former Nouvelle France, more is needed. Here are some ways to improve the article:

• Say more on his interactions with the Anishinaabe peoples (trade, negotiations, expeditions, etc.)
• Much more needs to be said about his trade and diplomatic negotiations with the Wendat peoples.
• More on the background of his youth that leads him to travel to New France would be helpful.
• Brûlé adopted many customs such as rarely eating salt and that wild greens must be boiled before being eating except in situations where this wasn't possible.
• How (or assumed how) did Brûlé die? A discussion of the uncertainty would be helpful.
• After his death, how did he become an active character in not only the Canadian cultural identity, but also the Great Lakes cultural identity of the United States?
• Citation, citation, citation
• Break up into sections for ease of reading the article.

Please cross off the list as they have been completed. Thanks. CJLippert 21:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC) How are you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.7.224 (talk) 23:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you SineBot for the 4 tildas tip. We tried to improve this article by correcting some obvious errors of fact and by separating what was speculation from what is actually known from primary sources, elementary deduction and recent research in France, however, many of the changes seem to have been vaporized. The article's footnote reference numbers are all screwed up which makes footnoting confusing. For example, the 1618 meeting of Brûlé and Champlain, the wiki said it happened at Quebec City which was wrong so we changed it to Trois-Rivières which is correct. But a footnote makes no point once the correction is made. It would be this: "...Trois Riviéres...We made such progress by rowing that we arrived at the before-mentioned place on the 7th of July at 3 o'clock in the afternoon." Samuel de Champlain, Voyages, Volume 3 1618 p.218 (C.P. Otis trans.). Similarly, in the next wiki sentence: ...Champlain advised him to continue his explorations among the Hurons... is incorrect. So we changed it to ...explorations to the west, which reflects what Champlain wrote: "...resuming his journey towards us he came by way of the _Mer Douce_, boating along its northern shores [sic, it should be north along its shore] for some ten days, where I had also gone when on my way to the war. And if Brélé [sic] had gone further on to explore these regions, as I had directed him to do, it would not have been a mere rumor that they were preparing war with one another. But this undertaking was reserved to another time, which he promised me to continue and accomplish in a short period with God's grace, and to conduct me there that I might obtain fuller and more particular knowledge." This territory towards Lake Superior is not Huron but Ojibwa and their claim of hostilities with Sicangu Lakota had obstructed Brûlé and Tregouroti on their 1612 exploration attempt. Which, incidentally, can be footnoted thus: "Mr. Warren, in his History of the Ojibwa Indians, (Coll. Minn. Hist. Soc., 1885, vol. 5, p. 130.) bases his belief upon traditional evidence that the Ojibwa first had knowledge of the whites in 1612." from: The Mide'wiwin or "Grand Medicine Society" of the Ojibwa; Seventh Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, 1885-1886, Government Printing Office, Washington, 1891, pages 143-300 Author: Walter James Hoffman. Aside from such minor errors, there are some major ones in the current wiki, e.g. He was sent back to France and forbidden to return. That's just wrong. One source is the first Jesuit Superior in Kebec, Charles Lallemand dated August 1, 1626. Letter from Father Charles L'Allemant, Superior of the Mission of Canadas, of the Society of Jesus. To Father Jerome l'Allemant, his brother. Anthologized in The Jesuit Relations: Volume 4 and Allied Documents Ed. Reuben Gold Thwaites Cleveland MDCCC CVIII which states: "...I know an Interpreter who receives one hundred pistoles [1,000 livres], and a certain number of hides which he is permitted to carry away each year. It is true that he trades them off as his own merchandise. Your Reverence will see him this year; he is one of those who have very effectively assisted us. Your Reverence will, if you please, give him a kind greeting; for he is going to return, and do great service here for Our Lord." (p.210) Indeed, the modern French research has even turned up his 1628 contract with Richelieu's "100 Associates" hiring Brûlé as a truchement to the King for 400 livres, a wage cut of 60% plus a load of pelts, which David Fischer (Champlain's Dream, p. 500) bizarrely considers to be "generous terms". Also wrong is the wiki line: Brûlé then set out for England. In fact, he and Amantacha attempted to return to Canada on Richelieu's all-eggs-in-one-basket convoy and were captured by the Kirke's Huguenot fleet and taken to England by force. As for whether Brûlé "betrayed France" the fact is that Richelieu had reignited the religious civil war and betrayed every principle of Henri IV. By modern standards, Richelieu was a war criminal and psychopath who ruled through terror. At least wiki should recognize that the issue is disputed. 70.31.4.9 (talk) 11:18, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

As proof of this issue being disputed we suggest comparing the English Wikipedia with the French Wikipedia: "Dans le dernier écrit de Champlain, il est dit qu'il a trahi le roi et la patrie. Ces mots ne sont pas de Champlain mais de "troisième main", probablement de missionnaires jésuites." (In his last work Champlain wrote that he betrayed his King and country. These words are not Champlain's but a "third hand", probably Jesuit missionaries.) 70.31.4.9 (talk) 03:28, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering about the last sentence about Etienne Brule. He was eaten by the Hurons? If whoever wrote that could give me a source for that information I'd appreciate it.

It was User:Maury Markowitz - I wrote the original article, and I just said he was killed by the Hurons. I'm not sure where Maury got the info that he was eaten. Adam Bishop 22:07, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

On Brûlé being eaten after his death by torture

As part of Wendat war rituals, prisoners would be tortured to death and the body parts being cut off would sometimes be eaten by the people attending the "ceremony". For example, relatives of the warriors that the prisoner had killed in battle would cut off a finger or an ear and eat it in front of the victim. As part of the ritual, the captive would be asked to sing his adonwé (a kind of a courage song) while the warriors would tear off his nails, cut his fingers, burn his skin all over, cut off parts of his body and eventually decapitate him.

There is evidence that the normal ritual was not performed on Brûlé after he was taken prisoner by a group of Wendat warriors. If we believe the history as it was reported at the time, Brûlé was found (by his children) crucified on a wooden cross at spring. Part of his chest on the heart's side was open.

That's what I know. If I can find the original source of this info, I will post it here. -- Mathieugp 19:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--That's all nonsense. The original 'source' is Gabriel Sagard writing in Paris in 1636 who worked from the Jesuit Relations and Champlain's 1632 Voyages (which many French historians consider to be corrupted by an unknown editor), adding rumours and speculations to serve his political purposes. Sagard hadn't been in Canada since he was recalled in 1624. Brebeuf, on the scene in 1634, says nothing of Brule being condemned, nor tortured, nor being eaten. He uses the verb "assommer" --a knock-out bop on the head; the rest is blatant propaganda and/or juvenile fantasizing. The truth is we don't even know if Brule was actually dead: Brebeuf tried, but couldn't get the body. And Sagard was such an incompetent racist-imperialist nut case that his worthless 1636 book isn't even translated to English. But here is what he wrote in French to set off four centuries of progressive exaggerations: "...A la fin ce fortuné Bruslé a esté du depuis condamne à la mort, puis mangé par les Hurons, ausquels il avoit si long-temps servy de truchement..." (His luck run out, Brusle was then condemned to death and eaten by the Hurons whom he had so long served as a translator.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.4.9 (talk) 08:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Copied from the Brule disambiguation page

Étienne Brûlé was a Frenchman employed by Samuel de Champlain to establish friendly Native American relations in parts of the North American interior, which is now present-day Canada. In the year 1632, an Native American tribe caught him robbing the grave of a sacred burial ground. Members of the tribe then proceeded to kill him and eat parts of his remains to avenge the atrocity. This instance is referred to as one of the many examples of excessive European interference with Native Americans, which resulted in disaster.

---

Cited from History Textbook: Liberty, Equality, Power

--utter nonsense with zero documented sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.4.9 (talk) 08:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know

A living relative of Étienne Brule claims that Étienne's death is still a mystery, and therefore warrants investigation.

Can you provide a source for that claim? --Merovingian {T C @} 03:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

-- Wiki: "...1615, they met again at Huronia. There, Brûlé informed Champlain of his adventures and explorations through North America. Brûlé explained that he was joined by another French interpreter by the name of Grenolle. He reported that they traveled along the north shore of what they called la mer douce (the sweetwater sea), now known as Lake Huron, and went as far as the great rapids of Sault Ste. Marie where Lake Superior enters Lake Huron.

Champlain's Dream, p. 499: "...They met again in 1615. Brule told Champlain that he had traveled widely through North America. With another French interpreter named Grenolle, he had followed the north shore of what they called the "mer douce, "the sweetwater sea today's Lake Huron--as far as the great rapids of Sault Ste. Marie, where the waters of another grand lac (Lake Superior) entered Lake Huron."

Fischer's timeline (and its derivative) is certainly wrong. Grenolle can not possibly have arrived in Huronia before 1615. According to Champlain's journal on June 20th, 1611 before Brule left with the Wendat, Champlain made Tregouroti promise that he would show Brûlé "all that could be seen". The most basic thing Champlain wanted to know is whether Lake Superior held fresh or salt water. Hence the Ojibwa date their first contact with a European to 1612. But Tregouroti made a bee-line, went up the Bruce Peninsula and canoed via Manitoulin Island to reach the Sault. We know this because in 1618 Champlain wants Brule to explore west from where the French River joins Georgian Bay, ie the North Shore, where he hasn't yet been. The trip with Grenolle was not reported to Champlain but to Sagard in 1623-24. Most historians, beginning with Butterfield, date the Lake Superior trip to 1621 or 1622. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.4.9 (talk) 09:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Your the best

00:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)74.104.230.52ri am doing a project on you and I was wondering if you can help me.

from 
    help girl

Question where is a picture of Brule? Ya, where's the picture of him; whoever wrote this is just dumb.

Thanks

--The I LOVE ONE DIRECTION

the only possibility is that Champlain sketched him at the Kahnawake in 1611 when Brûlé was dressed as a native. Fourth from the right if Champlain used it in the illustrations on his published map. Some copies are colored-in but the original engraving is on the web somewhere. The face looks French, Bourbon nose, and the figure has a scraggy teenage beard but the natives did not grow beards at all. Canoeing in June the loincloth makes sense. The Wendat had been trading furs for stuff like iron arrowheads so Brûlé making arrows fits. The figure is also carrying some feathers in the fold of his ponytail, presumably to make quills for the arrow's tail.

I was wondering how much, and the names of all Étienne Brûlé children? Do you think you could help me out, please... And thank you

His death

I have now seen three versions of what happened to him, he was killed and eaten, the was killed and buried, and he was killed on a cross. The reasons are equally varied. Most external sources I can find state that he was "killed for unknown reasons" after a quarrel, there is nothing about his capture by the Seneca, and the provided reference doesn't seem to say anything.

I'd recommend all of this be removed unless someone has a good reason not to.

Maury 22:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This makes no sense "Treated as an enemy, Brûlé was stabbed to death, his body was dismembered, and his remains were consumed by the villagers in 1633. He died at Toanche, on the Penetanguishene peninsula, Ontario, and was eaten by the Hurons, who interred only those who met death by violence."

How is being stabbed to death not considered violence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.255.176 (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The (mangled) source is "The Children of Aataentsic: A History of the Huron People to 1660" by Bruce Trigger (p. 473..) which has: "In the Spring of 1633 Brûlé was murdered at Toanché. Sagard, writing in France, stated that he was condemned to death and eaten by the Huron...the fact that Brûlé was given a proper burial indicates that he was not tortured or eaten, as Sagard imagined...Interment was the traditional form of burial for anyone who had died a violent death. Brebeuf spoke of Brûlé being barbarously and treacherously murdered, but not of being eaten by the Hurons." 184.144.61.105 (talk) 02:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Updated Death Section - October, 2020

I overhauled the paragraphs on his death into a full section that discusses the controversy and mysteries surrounding it. My research opened up quite a rabbit hole that could easily lend itself to conspiracy, but I kept everything published grounded to only university-backed texts. I included a more concise version of the original paragraph (which cites the cannibalism story), but also included counterpoints. This is important because my research sourced this gruesome story exclusively to Gabriel Sagard, despite none of Brûlé's immediate contemporaries nor ethnographic studies into the Wendat people acknowledging the Bear clan as practicers of cannibalism. I'm hoping at the very least Canadian kids working on their social studies projects will have a more rounded understanding of the many viewpoints and mysteries surrounding this interesting character's end of days! OddlyOaktree (talk) 06:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Huronia

It appears that the link to Huronia (Section "Life in New France", first paragraph, third sentence, and second paragraph, second sentence) links to a mollusk, not a town. Huronia, the town, may have been on the Penetanguishene peninsula, where there are current references to such a community. Even if no new link to a town is created, the current link should be removed from the article. ClaymoreWW (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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What did he eat?

nothing says google 216.104.105.206 (talk) 16:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)