Talk:Ian Curtis

Mood

"While performing for Joy Division, Curtis became known for his quiet and awkward demeanour, as well as a unique dancing style reminiscent of the epileptic seizures he experienced, sometimes even on stage.[4] There were several incidents where he collapsed and had to be helped off stage.[5][6]" I thougt I´d add something similiar to; Although off-stage he had a very high temper and constant mood swings. The band members described different situations whereas Ian would appear very dominant and furious. This was briefly taken from Grant Gee´s documentary. I think it´s important that readers get a good look on the both sides of Ian. --Albin H-L (talk) 08:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Addition

There is a song by the band Thursday off of the Album Full Collapse which is called Ian Curtis. If you think it has notability maybe mention this under the 'legacy' section. -Chris Giofreda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.174.219.194 (talk) 23:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Echo and the Bunnymen actually carried on the essence of Joy Division into the early 1980’s. Rhmcvay (talk) 04:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Instruments

Hey, big Joy Division/New Order fanboy here, is there any sourced pictures or websites that confirm Ian also played the Keyboard and melodica? I'm aware a melodica is in a rehearsal from the Heart and Soul boxset, but is it confirmed it was played by him? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.70.106 (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

He does play the opening guitar chords on 'Love Will Tear us Apart'. This can be seen on most of the live, bootleg-footages of them performing the song. Sumner usually handled the keyboards in songs where the guitar didn´t play a major role, such as 'Isolation' or 'Decades'. --Albin H-L (talk) 20:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC) With that being said; I don´t think that Ian handled those kind of instruments. Sumner probably did :) --Albin H-L (talk) 13:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Standing up?

I'm not sure what is meant by the phrase "After standing up Factory Records", I assume it is just a typo of 'starting up' or is it something else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.13.39.98 (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Edited to say "starting up" Grievous Angel 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Title of the movie

Will people please stop saying the title of the movie is 'Control: The Ian Curtis Movie'. It isn't, and never has been. SAFCjl 18:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC) You said it. What a stupid name for a movie anyway... "The Ian Curtis movie."--Albin H-L (talk) 16:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Uniform

Is it true that Curtis was wearing a Nazi uniform when he hanged himself?

Not at all. Ian was not a Nazi. You can listen to the lyrics of "Decades" and see it was about the horrors of a concentration camp. Heck, just look at the name of the band...has wife even said although Ian was interested in all of the Nazis orginixation (Like any human is, even myself being a communist get entranced by those fools called Nazis) So this rumor that Ian was a Nazi is stupid and un founded on fact.

As much as I love Joy Division's music, this entry is hagiography, not and encyclopedia entry. Firt of all, saying "extraordinary songs" is against wikipedia's NPOV policy, and secondly, Curtis hung himself!!!! I don't get where you think he died from "depressive illness" or "medications".

This desperately needs editing.

Can we do better than "One thing led to another and Curtis got to know a young Bernard Sumner and Peter Hook." One thing led to another? YOu should be forbidden to ever write anything ever. 70.107.223.34 20:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

the medication he was on at the time can make people become depressed. mixing this with the fact he was very ill and that his wife was leaving him made him suicidal. so after a fashion it was his depressive illness and medication that caused him to die. no ones having a point of view about him making extraordinary songs its a well known fact that he did make extraordinary songs even if your a fan or not

I've made it more NPOV, but it still needs expansion, of course. --Camembert

Jude Law connection

As it's the 25th anniversary of Ian's death, perhaps it would be fitting if someone took it upon themselves to revise this entry. I would vounteer, but I'm only a recent convert to JD, and am really not as qualified as a lot of people.

One thing that I did notice is the reference to the possibility that 30-something Jude Law may play a 23-year old Ian Curtis, something which has been denied by the film makers:

http://www.poptones.co.uk/news/2004/09/06/qod-toddeckert.htm

Not to be a spoil sport, but that article's outdated, compared to the Dec. 2004 source used to write the excerpt on the Curtis biopic. --Madchester 03:22, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Is what the director said about Jude Law refuted in the more up-to-date article?

Self harm?

Does anyone know if Ian Curtis practiced self harm? This is currently in dispute over at List of self harmers. Mdwh 04:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd say topping yourself is pretty self-harmful. --Hn 07:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes;) But that's not self-harm, else we'd just be adding everyone from List of suicides and making the list useless. Mdwh 22:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Hahahaha. That was such a good answer. Both of you. Tommyhaych 20:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

In the film Joy Division, Bernard Sumner talks about him self-harming with a knife. --82.69.202.14 (talk) 11:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In the book Touching from a Distance, Deborah mentions how, in high school, he would take prescription drugs and beat his legs with a spiked shoe to show off. Another time at a party he cut his hand by punching through a glass window. When he was performing with Warsaw, she mentions he once cut himself when he smashed a beer bottle and another time he smashed a glass onto the stage and rolled over it, cutting his legs. I don't have the exact page numbers but somewhere between 10-30. So yes, I would say Ian practised self harm.PLAN grey (talk) 00:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Ian's depression

It is certainly reasonable to speculate that Ian was depressed. He had, as evidenced by his lyrics a fascination with death, suffered a debilitating illness, abused alcohol, engaged in an affair and ultimately hung himself (a particularly self loathsome manner to kill yourself). All this on the eve of his impending rise as an international rock star.

It remains however speculation. It is impossible to diagnose someone with a mental illness such as depression post mortem. I think it also defines him in a narrow way. He was more then just a depressed suicidal rock star. His intelligence, point of view and ability to understand human nature would yield a better result in trying to understand who Ian was.

Does anyone know if he was diagnosed with any mental illnesses while he was alive, or if mental illness was mentioned at his inquest? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 17:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The only confirmed diagnosis I've found of his mental state was of epilepsy. He was very private about his illness, not even letting his wife be alone with the doctor treating his condition. His GP at his local practice committed suicide in 1979 (p.86 in his wife's book), and as far as I know the specialist treating his epilepsy at the local hospital never violated doctor-patient confidentiality. Anecdotal evidence shows that Ian was manic and prone to mood swings, even described as schizophrenic by his friends. His epilepsy medication, whose side effects included 'dizziness, confusion, excitement, drowsiness' apparently made this worse (p. 71). PLAN grey (talk) 01:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That's the trouble with Wikipedia: anyone who knows more than two lines of a Joy Division tune knows that Ian was clearly a depressive, but it can't be proved in retrospect, so it can't go in the article. Such a pain. Pollythewasp (talk) 08:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

There it is. Much of what we believe is tradition. In Wikipedia tradition trumps everything else. How many flat earths does it contain? Mea (talk) 04:40, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Ian Curtis' grave

Can someone post a photo of his grave? It sounds interesting.

I have one, but it was taken by an online friend with whom I've lost contact. Should I just upload it anyhow? Folkor 18:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You can find one at The Cemetery of Rock - Ian Curtis. --David Edgar 18:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Try this site for photos Ian's Curtis's Macclesfield.

I used to live in Macclesfield. I'll take a picture next time I visit (if I remember to take my camera). Oldelpaso 19:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Is the replacement headstone very similar to the one that was stolen last year? Has anyone been arrested or questioned in connection with the theft? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You can find one at The Cemetery of Rock - Ian Curtis. --David Edgar 18:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)...........here is where it mentions Ian hanged himself in his edroom.

Stroszek reference

This article describes Werner Herzog's movie Stroszek as a film about a troubled artist who commits suicide. Just not the case. Can that be omitted/fixed?. kblument

I just fixed this. - Matt

bedroom? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zorro59 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Did he actually watch this film? How would he have gotten hold of a copy of it in 1980 or was it screened on TV? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Why remove the pictures?

I tought the pictures where valuable to the article. Why have they been removed?

With a biopic around the corner, I think it's a bad time to remove them.

Picture question

The information listed with Ian's picture mentions that the instrument he used was his voice, yet the picture shown is of him with a guitar in a performance setting. Should this be added to the list of instruments that he used, or is there a reason why only voice is listed? SailorAlphaCentauri 08:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

A small change about the article regarding Tony Wilson

I changed it from '..play shadowplay on his (tony wilson)'s television show' to '..play shadowplay on Granada Reports (a tv show on which he (tony wilson) presented).

It sounded a tad innacurate that it was his television show so I added to the point.

Video of the event

Tommyhaych 20:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Musical tribute

Isn't The Durutti Column song "The Missing Boy" also a tribute to Ian Curtis? If it is, it should be included in the list. Armadillo01 (talk) 18:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Family

The article does not mention his parents. What are their names? Are they alive or dead? How many brothers and sisters did he have? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Hanged himself in bedroom?

thought ian curtis hanged himself fron a clothes pulley, in the kitchen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zorro59 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The article doesn't mention him hanging himself in a bedroom. By the way the word is "hanged" when referring to a person. --JD554 (talk) 07:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

---

You can find one at The Cemetery of Rock - Ian Curtis. --David Edgar 18:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)...........here is where it mentions Ian hanged himself in his bedroom.

That's not considered a reliable source (partly because it says Macclesfield is in Manchester). Nev1 (talk) 21:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

One day it will be. He. Ceoil (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of why I hate Wikipedia: "Debbie left him in her house overnight while she left to do some errands." Next thing we know, Ian's dead. And then some inane crap about "Throbbing Gristle." That's it? Seriously? One of the most important parts of Ian's life, and this is all the explanation we get? Did they have a fight? Who runs errands that take all night so her husband can hang himself and not be found until the next morning? What the hell happened? No big deal - like half the shit found on here, it's glossed over and nobody seems to care. Sloppy.

He missed basically ALL of the 80s !! Tsinfandel (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Deborah Woodruff

"His widow is still alive" - is that really necessary? Feels a little odd to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.18.131 (talk) 21:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Last performed song

Are you sure Digital was the last performed song? Its the last one on the CD version of Still, but my memory of the original album was that Sister Ray was performed as an encore after Digital. Shame if that's right, because Digital is much more fitting end than the, frankly, awful Sister Ray, but that's how I remember it. Zettel45 (talk) 14:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)Zettel45

Far as I know, when Sister Ray was played its was as the last song of the set. Yeah, it dreadful, and I'd guess a lot would have left half way through. Ceoil 23:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Digital was the last song performed at their last concert on 2 May 1980 at High Hall, Birmingham University. http://www.joydiv.org/c020580.htm Sister Ray was performed on 2 April 1980 at the Moonlight Club.http://www.joydiv.org/c020480.htm I personally love Joy Division's cover of Sister Ray (much more so than New Order's version), as it proves that JD can be groovy.

Original research?

We say:

"On 23 August 1975 Curtis married an old school friend, Deborah Woodruff. He was 19 and she 18. Their daughter Natalie was born on 16 April 1979. She is a photographer."

The citation is <ref>[http://www.16apr79.com/ Natalie Curtis's photography website]</ref> Apart from the obvious (WP:Bare URL), the source neither supports the first two sentences nor does it established the connection between the alleged daughter called Natalie and a "photographer" who website contains not a lot but happens to bear the name "Natalie Curtis" and make a reference to 16 April 1979. The statements are probably correct but the source is nothing like good enough. I am removing it as being original research and a potential violation of WP:BLP. - Sitush (talk) 23:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting us. Warning don't read the Vedas, they are full of unsupported speculation. Mea (talk) 04:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Can we change the picture?

that is not a flattering picture of Ian, he looks like he was in the middle of one of his seizures. there are a lot more flattering pictures of him out there that would be more apt. --Wikiepdiax818 (talk) 05:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I have a problem with a painting being the only representation of this great artist. Is it just me? Can we change it to an actual photograph? Especially today, on the anniversary of his death, let's make this right. Beatriceblue (talk) 04:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, especially since it also serves as an ad for the artist, according to the description... "(for sale) "COMMISSIONS ACCEPTED."" Metaphoria (talk) 07:19, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that was the only picture available. Unless someone is able to find a copyright-free image of Curtis, I suggest we put the creepy oil painting back up. The "for sale" information can be deleted from the photo description. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be more apt to not put a picture at all in my opinion if our only other option is a really amatuer monochrome drawing of him. I'm pretty sure there is a picture already uploaded on here of his grave. Even that would be better. I think wikipedia can be held at a higher standard than fan art. 24.186.84.13 (talk) 05:49, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

A non-free photograph of someone who died decades ago clearly falls under fair use, since it is not possible to create a new free photo of the person. See for example Darby Crash, Aaliyah, and The Notorious B.I.G.. In nearly all cases a photograph of the person is preferable to an artist's interpretation. In this case it would do perfectly well to crop File:Joy Division.JPG and use it in this article. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:16, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Suicide and use of language

I was wondering what people's thoughts were on changing the description of Ian's suicide in the first paragraph so that it excludes the phrase "committed suicide". I think it should be changed to a less emotive phrase such as "died by suicide". I made an edit in good faith, but was reverted. Maybe if I can gain consensus here, it can be changed. Also, this sort of change could be applied across Wikipedia for articles mentioning suicide. I've thought quite a bit about language used around discussion of suicide after reading Samaritans' media guidelines here (pdf) (2013). Thanks Marvinthefish (talk) 03:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with it, and I was fine with your edit that was reverted without any explanation. Some would argue that died by suicide is redundant, but committed suicide is really no better in my opinion.- MrX 03:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

His suicide is only mentioned in the lead. Some mention of it should be included in the section about his death. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 04:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Marvin, this is not how Wikipedia works. As our article on suicide says, There is discussion about the appropriateness of the term commit and its use to describe suicide. Those who object to the use of commit argue that it carries with it implications that suicide is a criminal, sinful or morally wrong act. There is growing consensus that it is more appropriate to use "completed suicide," died by suicide or simply "killed him/herself" to describe the act of suicide. Despite this, “committed suicide” or similar descriptions are the most common in both scholarly research and journalism. If you wanted to raise this at a central venue towards achieving a project-wide consensus not to use "commit suicide" I might support that, but only if it was replaced by "killed himself" as I think "died by suicide" sounds contrived, redundant and ridiculous. But this article is really not the place to make the change. Meantime "committed suicide" is fine. Magnolia677 is right that the article needs to describe his suicide better. --John (talk) 13:58, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks John. I probably was a little naive in making this edit without first gaining some kind of consensus. I recognise that making a Wikipedia-wide change cannot happen just by making edits one-by-one. Do you think the village pump (proposals) would be a better place to explore this topic? I don't believe "died by suicide" sounds contrived, and in my opinion "commit suicide" does indeed carry implications of the act being criminal, morally wrong, sinful. There is an archived post (#113) in village pump (proposals) that deals with a similar topic [1], so maybe I can put forward a new proposal and refer back to that one made by 184.77.68.158. Marvinthefish (talk) 00:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks User:Marvinthefish. If you raise this at the VP(P) page I think I would support it bur I strongly prefer "kill oneself" to "die by suicide". WP:EUPHEMISM may be worth a look as well. We need to balance the prerogatives of the Samaritans' guidelines with those of our readers. I think that is the way to go. --John (talk) 02:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Treybien here. I think that the section on his death was a little busy; it distracts form the main topic of the section - his suicide - with extraneous details about his personal life. While I understand that those details provide background information about the problems that may have led to his suicide, I think that it may be better to have a "Personal life" section to cover that information and leave the "Death" section a little less cluttered. As it stands now, the exact same information about Annik Honore and Curtis' failing marriage is in both "personal Life" and "Death" sections - pretty much word for word. If it's alright, I'd like to take it out of the "Death" section. Incidentally, I apologize for not leaving edit summaries before; I'll try to rectify that mistake in future. Treybien 17.:44 September 14 2016. (UTC)

References

Infobox suggestions

I was thinking it's a good idea to add the following as I've seen them on other infoboxes and think they would be a good addition: -Cause of death: suicide by hanging -Resting place: cremated, ashes buried in Macclesfield cemetery

HiddenHerobrine (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Block quote

Why would the article contain this huge chunk of verbatim text from a source?

I didn't call his name or go upstairs. At first, I thought he had left because the house smelled strangely fresh. The familiar clinging stench of tobacco wasn't there. He must have caught the train after all. There was an envelope on the living-room mantelpiece. My heart jumped when I realized that he had left a note for me. He was kneeling in the kitchen. I was relieved – glad he was still there. 'Now what are you up to?' I [then] took a step towards him, about to speak. His head was bowed; his hands resting on the washing machine. I stared at him, he was so still. Then the rope – I hadn't noticed the rope. The rope from the clothes rack was around his neck.

We normally summarise sources rather than quote them verbatim. Daniel Case mentioned this in another discussion as an example of bad practice and I agree with him. --John (talk) 07:29, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe a 'trim' of the quote could be in order. I suppose personal opinions govern whether the header currently atop the article is appropriate. The article is hardly a stub or little better than a stub. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 21:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I think the quote could be summarised without losing anything and so could many of the others in the article. Hence the tag. --John (talk) 22:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Be my guest, John. Not getting defensive, but I didn't add that quote. It certainly does add some superfluous info ("familiar stench of tobacco wasn't there" etc.)--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Discography?

This article is listed as needing a discography, but there is one listed ("with Joy Division"). For now I'm going to change this parameter, but if someone sees otherwise, please correct me. --D1119 (talk) 17:24, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

first seizure

I have a story from Bernard Sumner about Ian's first seizure... it's in the 2007 documentary. Would it be proper to add it? I feel that it would, Ian's epilepsy changed his career. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolanisntfunny (talk • contribs) 16:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Should another photo be used?

I am asking this because the current photo of Curtis is not the greatest. It's overexposed, which could be fixed, but his eyes are also closed. I've found some possible replacements that could be used under fair use:

• I particularly like this one, where Curtis is smoking a cigarette, but the fact that it doesn't show him singing might be an issue. [2]

Here are some others that could be possible candidates.

• https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/10/1412963003059/17a1c8eb-76fd-4abc-97d4-db0d7c20a29d-2060x1236.jpeg
• https://blowup.press/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Ian-Curtis.jpg
• https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article5774570.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Ian-Curtis.jpg

JamesTheLaptop (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Early Life

In this section, content that is cited to a book I don't have access to says he drew inspiration from "ever more insidious subjects".

What is an "insidious subject"? I propose to remove this sentence, unless someone else can replace this term with phrasing that is less opaque.

MrDemeanour (talk) 15:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Interpretation stated as fact

"Curtis enjoyed solitude, but had never been mentally equipped for living alone." in the "Depression and initial suicide attempt" section can't we written in wiki voice and needs to be stated in third person attributed to Deborah Curtis as the author of his biography. -- 2003:C9:470F:D500:B8BC:8C0D:F36F:C48D (talk) 11:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)