Talk:It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

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Untitled[edit]

Is the 'if' really lowercase? It shouldn't be in a title. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:56, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 13:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Title[edit]

Hi, I'm not really up on wiki article editing rules and style, but the phrase "it's a good life, if you don't weaken" appears in Graham Greene's story "The Basement Room" (1936) which you can see here. "The Basement Room" was adapted into the film The Fallen Idol and the phrase appears in the film as well.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.203.7 (talk) 23:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another thought on the source of the book's title: could it be a reference to old-time cartoonist Gene Byrnes' strip It's a Great Life If You Don't Weaken (1917–1920), which went on to become his long-running strip Reg'lar Fellers? Seems like the kind of thing Seth would've done... -- stoshmaster (talk) 04:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's been mentioned, but I can't find a source that explicitly says Seth picked it up from there. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:15, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 17:41, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]


  • "several scenes are in atmospheric pantomime" What does that mean?
    • It's supposed to mean that the scenes jump from panel to panel without dialogue balloons or captions. I've reworded to "several wordless scenes take the reader on an tour of landscapes and cityscapes". Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a self-deprecatory take on themselves" I would have thought self-deprecatory implies themselves- how about something like "a self-deprecatory sense of humour" or "a self-deprecatory perspective" or something.
  • Is Jack "Kalo" Kalloway a real person?
  • "are in atmospheric pantomime" Again, this is a little obscure for a general reader
    • Does "Several wordless scenes unfold in an atmospheric panning through landscapes and cityscapes, with a particular focus on older buildings." work? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "invites reader identification"- With/of what/whom?
  • "some, such as Scott McCloud, argue" Does your source specifically say that more than one person argues this? If not, just say "Scott McCloud argues"
  • The image caption is a rather difficult read.
  • "along with his thick, bold brushline and compositional sense, though with greater deliberation and restraint.[14] Seth's brushline is simple and organic, yet precise," I think this is a little non-neutral to be saying in Wikipedia's own "voice"
  • "Seth demonstrates the dexterity of his drawing when he produces the Kalo cartoons in a style as derivative of The New Yorker stylists, yet stands convincingly distinct from the art in the rest of the book." Again
  • "In a metatextual twist he discusses his love of this style with Chester Brown in the story that itself is drawn in such a way;[18] Brown expresses his appreciation for such cartoonists but disappoints Seth with his lack of enthusiasm.[15] Seth's use of a real person to comment on Kalo's work makes the fictional cartoonist's existence seem more plausible,[4] as does an actual photograph on the final page purporting to be of Kalo.[19]" I'm afraid I don't follow this, and so I'm struggling to follow the next paragraph too.
    • I've tweaked this, and rearranged the section somewhat. Is it still difficult to follow? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "provides Seth an opportunity" The real Seth, or the character?
  • "Seth has become one of the most respected cartoonists in Canada; his stature has come to rival that of Chester Brown's, and he has earned higher esteem in literary circles than more popular cartoonists such as Bryan Lee O'Malley" Again, a little non-neutral
    • Is "He has achieved a particularly high level of critical recognition and popular recognizability have become particularly high compared to other Canadian cartoonists." better? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll stop there, for now, but I may have some more comments later. Interesting topic- I confess I've never been a graphic novel person! Josh Milburn (talk) 18:17, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Second read-through[edit]

  • "Friends of his appeared in it, most prominently fellow Toronto-based cartoonists Chester Brown and Joe Matt, who also featured each other in their own autobiographical comics." I don't follow.
    • Each of the three featured each of the other three in each of their comics—something they were known for at the time. I'll rework this. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Seth discovers his own childhood hometown of Strathroy in Southern Ontario was where the Kalo spent his life. Seth contacts Kalo's daughter and learns of the elder cartoonist's life" Repetition
  • "Seth appropriates the sophisticated, jaded satirical mood of Arno's work[12] along with his thick brushline and compositional sense, though with greater deliberation and restraint.[13]" Again, this is a little non-neutral, for me.
    • How is "Seth appropriates the sophisticated, jaded satirical mood, thick brushline, and compositional sense of Arno's work."? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In a metatextual twist Seth discusses his love of the New Yorker style with Chester Brown" This is still difficult for the non-specialist to follow.
  • What does "camera eye" mean?
  • "He avoids engaging with her thoughts and interests, and she ends by leaving him." This is unclear.
    • Is "Whenever she leads the conversation to her own thoughts and interests, Seth changes the subject." better? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's some ambiguity in some places as to whether you're referring to Seth the character or Seth the author. Perhaps you could check all mentions of "Seth", and, if at all ambiguous, clarify?
    • I'll see what I can do—Seth the artist goes to such lengths to convince the reader that he is one and the same with Seth the character. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pondering on the non-free images in the article, but, at the very least, both panels require a more detailed "purpose of use" in the rationale, and both should probably be reduced in resolution. The sources all look appropriate. This is coming together nicely. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm sorry I went and expanded the article in the middle of a review—I suddenly got access to a bunch of sources I couldn't access when I nominated. As for the images—I thought the rule of thumb was less than 500px? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've never heard that 500px thing; the rule with album covers, at least, is 300px. The general rule would be something like "only as big as it needs to be, and preferably somewhat smaller than the original". Josh Milburn (talk) 17:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I've found when I've screwed up image sizes, there are bots that go around making them compliant—I think I'll wait for one of them to decide it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • (talk page stalker) Hope this helps: The rule of thumb is spelled out at WP:IMAGERES, which basically states that the image width x height should be the number 100,000 or less. So for example, 320 x 300 would be good. I'm so much happier now that this confusing area of Wikipedia has finally become un-confusing to me, so much so that I'm sharing what I learned with you guys. Prhartcom (talk) 23:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry I've been neglecting this article—I don't have any reasobale excuses. I just forgot. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Third read-through[edit]

For me, this still isn't quite there.

  • I feel it could be clearer that Kalo is fictional. Could this perhaps be mentioned in the lead?
  • "Seth appropriates the sophisticated, jaded satirical mood,[12] thick brushline, and compositional sense of Arno's work.[13] Seth's brushline is simple and organic, and he gives attention to buildings, landscapes, weather conditions, and other background details.[14]" This still feels too judgmental to be said in Wikipedia's neutral voice.
    • Would it work if I dropped "sophisticated, jaded satirical"? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looking at the cited source, I'm not even sure where you got that from? The author says: "A great deal of meaning is contained in the surface of Seth’s work, most notably its evocation of the early gag cartoons of The New Yorker. This impression – which is reinforced by the storyline of It’s a Good Life, If You Don’t Weaken – should be understood as a kind of shorthand. What it specifically points to is something in Seth’s drawing style that recalls the work of one of The New Yorker’s most renowned cartoonists, Peter Arno." However, I'm not seeing any of the words you use? Josh Milburn (talk) 16:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm still struggling with the paragraph starting "In a metatextual twist...". As far as I can see, "metatextual" is unexplained jargon, and it's currently unclear where the conversation takes place (I'm guessing, from the picture, you're referring to a conversation between Seth's character Seth and Seth's character Chester).
    • I've reworded it to "Seth discusses his with Chester Brown his love of the New Yorker style—the style in which the story itself is drawn." Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the paragraph starting "A strongly nostalgic", I am left unclear whether you're referring to Seth the character or Seth the artist. Same in the last two paragraphs of the section.
  • "Photographs recur as a motif, such as family portraits in Kalo's scrapbooks or wedding shots in a diner on which dwells." ?? (If this is a product of my copyediting, I can only apologise...)
  • "When Kalo's mother reveals Kalo's choice to give up cartooning, Seth must face the anxiety of his life choices and what the "Good Life" of the aphorism may mean to him[34]—as a mother who has outlived her son yet does not mire herself in the past, she provides an unsentimental contrast to how Seth views and deals with the world.[35]" Difficult to follow.
  • I'm honestly not sold on the use of two panel images, or, at least, not those two. The evocative descriptions of the first two paragraphs of the Analysis section could lend themselves to a non-free image displaying what is discussed there, but I'm not convinced that we need to see pictures of that conversation and that building- important though they are, the use of non-free images is justified by the importance of how something looks, rather than the importance of the topic.
    • I've dropped them. I don't think I can get across what's in the first two paragraphs without including a page, which would be too low-res to be helpful. Those pages are very similar to what's on the cover, anyways, but with freer panel arrangements and more movement (blowing leaves, etc). I've added a couple of images, including one of Seth that his publisher appears to have uploaded sometime last month. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I could provide some more pointers if you're aiming FAC-ward, but if you fix these issues, I'll happily promote to GA status. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm sorry again I've been taking my time with this. FAC is definitely the long-term goal, so I'd appreciate anything you could throw at it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A few more bits (note also my reply above):

  • As I think you know, File:Seth-cartoonist.jpg is going to need an OTRS ticket. It's a great picture- it'd be a shame to lose it.
    • Well, I sent D&Q an email eight days ago to confirm whether the photo was legit, and they haven't responded with so much as an automated response, so I'm assuming the photo will be unusable. I've replaced it with another—not as pretty, but this one actually looks more like the Seth in the book. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You cite a statement clarified "as of 2015" to something published in 2013 (and possibly written earlier).

In terms of looking towards FAC...

  • The plot seems a bit bare-bones at the moment. I wouldn't worry too much about citing the plot to third-party sources- you can just retell the story.
  • The reception and legacy section seems to have more legacy and people talking about the reception than the actual reception. Do we have any reviews written by reputable critics and/or published in reputable publications?
    • I'd love to find more, but coverage of alt comics was pretty limited before the 21st century, unless it was a breakout work like Maus. Occasionally Rolling Stone or Spin would throw in random comics reviews, but I haven't come across such a thing yet. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The structure of the Analysis section works, but it's not great. When you've got that much information, splitting it up may be helpful.

I think a peer review would be a good first step before FAC; though it's rapidly approaching GA-ready, I think there's a bit more to go before it's FAC-ready. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy that this is about ready for promotion, but a few more quick comments. These might be useful to expand the reception section: Josh Milburn (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • This piece is by Rachel Cooke, a notable journalist.
  • This piece, by Chris Ware, reads as follows concerning It's a Good Life: "4. It's a Good Life, if You Don't Weaken by Seth I still remember the day I bought this book, went out to my car and sat looking at it with my engine idling before I realized at least 15 minutes had passed. After Art's Maus it counts among the experiences that I'd cite as being singularly inspirational towards my trying to be more serious and considered as to what a "graphic novel" could be. It's especially hard to believe that it came out in 1996, as it still feels so innovative and beautiful (and it was serialized in Seth's periodical Palookaville years beforehand -- a new issue of which is just out this autumn, I should add.) I love all of Seth's work, from his ongoing Clyde Fans, Bannock, Beans & Black Tea (the incredible book he collaborated on with his father) to his unfathomable cardboard city of Dominion and the books and stories he's been writing around it like George Sprott. My life would be so less worth living without Seth and his artwork as a part of it."
  • Another from The Times. Original publication: The Times (London) // December 1, 2007, Saturday // Worth a thousand words // BYLINE: Neel Mukherjee // SECTION: FEATURES; Books; Pg. 16: "THERE ARE THREE BOOKS of the year. The first is It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken, by the Canadian artist Seth (Cape, £ 14.99/offer £ 13.49). A book so quiet that it stills the reader into an enchanted trance, it tells the story of Seth's obsessive search for Kalo, a New Yorker cartoonist from the 1940s, whose works have been lost. // Wrapped in nostalgia, exquisitely drawn in black and white washed over with blue-grey-green, impeccably narrated and full of wry wit, this book about disaffection and the salvation held out by art and the love of art is magical, insightful and, ultimately, transforming."
    • I assume you have a subscription? Are these the full quotes of what's in the articles about the book? I can't access them. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can access Nexis- that's where I got all of these from. At a glance, the quotes I copied were everything relevant in the article, but I can double check and/or send you the whole article, if you want me to. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • See also GQ magazine. Originally published as GQ // April 2009 // The 20 Graphic Novels You Should Read (After ‘Watchmen’) // BYLINE: Alex Pappademas : Kevin Sintumuang; - with contributions by BECKY CLOONAN // SECTION: BOOKS; Pg. 83 Vol. 79 No. 4 ISSN: 0016-6979: "It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken; by Seth; Ignore the title—this is not the indie mope-fest you'd expect. Seth's quixotic, nostalgia-fueled quest to track the life and career of Kalo, an obscure Canadian illustrator he discovers while rummaging through old magazines, leads to some truly poetic observations and ruminations on the fading, dusty world of the '40s and '50s."
  • For FAC purposes, you may want to think about mentioning if its been translated. I know it appeared in Korean, at least!
    • How on earth did you find that out? I can't find anything about it. I'd be surprised if there were no French translation, but I've searched in vain. Also, the Tragically Hip song of the same name is supposed to have come from the book, but I've had no luck fiding an RS that says so. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Again, Nexis. The result is this page; the date Nexis gives is 26 October 2012, if you want to cite it. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I managed to find a surprisingly long list of translations. It's not complete though—it doesn't have the Korean one. I've thrown them all into the artile, but I think I'm going to rework how I've handled it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This interview, which may be of interest more generally even if there's nothing for this article, was originally published as in The Globe and Mail (Canada) // May 9, 2009 Saturday // Canada's comic-book hero; His stories dwell on things vaguely remembered. His new graphic novel is about a has-been fifties TV star. Is it any surprise that Gregory Gallant, a.k.a. Seth, wears a fedora, collects Ookpik dolls and uses a rotary phone? James Adams reports // BYLINE: JAMES ADAMS // SECTION: WEEKEND REVIEW; BOOKS / INTERVIEW; Pg. R1
  • A review by Sam Leith: "The hero of this "picture novella" is called Seth. He is a cartoonist, rather depressive and neurotic, who affects round glasses and a fedora and hates modern life. He tends to push women away. He imagines that he'd have been happier in the 1940s or 1950s, but then catches himself imagining it and realises how absurd the idea is. // Seth's brushwork (or nib-work) consciously harks back to the old-style New Yorker cartoonists, and his strips are in retro-style, two-colour format with a blue tone. This tells the story of his infatuation with, and quest to find out more about, an obscure gag cartoonist called Kalo, whose style resembles his own, after spotting one of his drawings in a 1951 New Yorker. // This is classic modern comics hipster stuff: downbeat, introverted, but exquisite of its kind." From: The Daily Telegraph (LONDON) // July 28, 2007 Saturday // Graphic novels // BYLINE: Reviews by Sam Leith // SECTION: BOOKS; Pg. 32

Promoting[edit]

Ok, I am going to go ahead and promote. I'd say the article still has at least some way to go until it is FAC ready, so I wouldn't recommend nominating it just yet. I think I have pointed at where I'd say some improvement could be made (more reviews, perhaps a more detailed plot, a more structured analysis section), and you may also want to look at filling out more details of the translations (for example, someone who can read Korean could get you the Korean title, and maybe you could look into how the titles translate? Find out more translators? I'm just thinking aloud) and maybe working on the lead a little. Once you've done these things, perhaps a peer review would help you iron out any final creases and find some people who would be ready to support "off the bat" at nomination. I'm sorry this has been such an arduous review- I hope it hasn't put you off the GAC process or this article at all. Anyway, well done on your work so far, and best of luck with future improvement. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?[edit]

Maybe?

The Famous Eleven[edit]

This is a great article! I'm fascinated by the editing process that J Milburn and Curly Turkey went through to make it so strong.

I wish there was a place to list the 11 cartoons Seth created to showcase "Kalo"'s only known published cartoons:

I've found no evidence of a Cartoon Laughs magazine that was publishing in 1948; I have found a Cartoon Laughs published by Marvel from July 1962 - October 1975. Similarly, Gee-Whiz appears to have been published by Martin Goodman's Magazine Management from September 1955 - June 1967. Finally, Popular Cartoons was published by Marvel from January 1968 - July 1981.

It would be interesting to know which real cartoons from these magazines Seth replaced with his "Kalo" cartoons... -- stoshmaster (talk) 16:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

stoshmaster: Where did you hear Seth "replaced" any of these cartoons? I thought he just faked them all—at least, I don't recall coming across a source that said otherwise. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Curly Turkey: What I mean is, in some of the magazine clippings Seth shows in the book, there is (what I presume) actual text from the relevant magazines (articles, advertisements, and so forth). I presume that Seth covered over existing cartoons in those issues with the new ones he created on behalf of Kalo.
I also would love to know whose photograph that is which supposedly portrays Jack Kalloway in the book... -- stoshmaster (talk) 15:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It'd be nice to know, but I don't know of an WP:RS that says. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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