Talk:Stanley Ho

Order of paragraph

OK!!! the new order fo paragraph is good. -- 21charlesliu 18:27, 29 Feb 2004 hong kong

Is it better to re-arrange the order? I think we should distinguish between personal affairs and business, so I prefer to put "personal life" forward, just after "early life" --23Tung 04:22, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

yes we need to re-arrange the order. As seen other page (which also introduce people) in wikipedia, they also put personal life at the end. So I like we would better put 'personal life' at the end instead of put it after 'early life'. I suggest the order of table of content can be like this.

1 Current Positions
1.1 Business
1.2 Community
1.3 Politics
2 Early Life
3 Career path
4 Gambling and Macau
5 Future of his business
6 Community Commitment
7 Honors
8 Triads and Ho
9 Personal Life
10 See also
11 External links
11.1 Business
11.2 Education
11.3 Gambling
11.4 Others

Do you agree on it? If no one have any suggestion, I would do it soon. look forward to your reply. --24yuenching 06:32, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Early life and Studies

Can we just put "Studies" into "Early life" so as to combine them together? --23Tung 10:15, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think combine this section is okay only if the time of sequence is right. In the current article (you already combined one), the sequence is like that

• his family background
• his father bankrupt and two brothers commit suicide
• education queen's collage (but the information talks about b4 and after his father bankrupt)
• university life
• Current committment in HKU (So straight!!! why it is put in early life?? this is his current committment?)

do any one have any suggestion about that --24yuenching 06:20, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Copyright matter

Casino pic

Is the picture of Casino Lisoba taken by you, 24yuenching? if yes, you can state below the photo that it is your photo. i think it is safer -- 21charlesliu 23:00, 2004 Feb 26 hong kong

yes I took it. Sorry, but it is unnecessary to 'state' that i is took by me, it is common sense in wikipedia. --24yuenching 10:02, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to claim credit in the caption, but

i do think it's wise to explicitly do so on this talk page, since many people fail to understand what is and isn't protected by copyright, and many add photos under very debatable claims of fair use, and many (uh, especially Americans) imagine that the only copyright protections are those of the jurisdiction they live in. --Jerzy(t) 17:59, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

Family pix

are there any sources for the two pictures of Ho's daughter? i think they will infringe copyright if they are posted here. Also, can something find out the english names of Ho's wives and daughters that i put in Chinese? thanks!!!-- 21charlesliu 22:16, 2004 Feb 25 hong kong

Maybe we should remove the two photos in order to prevent the problem of copyright.-- 23lawrencelaw 22:28, 2004 Feb 25 hong kong

I want to ask the source of the photos so as to let us to judge it infringe copyright issue? --24yuenching 16:51, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I just got those photos from the PHOTO section in the Google Search engine. It says that the photo of Josie Ho comes from www.lovehkfilm.com/people/ho_josie.htm and the one of Pansy Ho comes from www.china.org.cn/chinese/TCC/98391.htm

I'm sorry that I did not aware about the copyright when I got these photos, so I think We'd better remove them from the page now.

Ho pic

But do you think that the photo of Stanley Ho can still be kept?-- 23lawrencelaw 10:58, 2004 26 Feb hong kong

okay, as these two photos are not important and infringe copyright, let delete it. According to what the lecturer said, stanley ho picture is okay because it is small and we just get one only. --24yuenching 06:02, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Is the lecturer an attorney specializing in internation intellectual property issues? I'm not going to push for deletion, but i urge against considering the question closed. --Jerzy(t) 17:59, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

Ho's POV; Gambling

I would like to add something about Stanley Ho's point of view towards different aspects and also how people comment on him (his personality) and his movements. What topic do you think I should add and write under? -- 23pklai 19:48, 2004 Feb 25 hong kong

Thanks for the suggestion. Do any one have the suggestion on the order of the table of contents? And do you think it is neccessary to put the information about the gambling industry in Macau in this page? -- 24yuenching 18:30, 2004 Feb 24 hong kong

I don't think it is necessary to have paragraph to talk about Stanley Ho point of view on different issues. If you want to add people comment on him, simply add title Views of Stanley like what it does in John Kerry --24yuenching 11:44, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think it will be difficult for us to include Ho's view because we can't make an interview with him. But if anyone can find it and think it is suitable, then try to post it and let's see.

For the gambling industry in Macau, as there's already one being done by another group, so maybe what we've already done is enough. (focus on Casino Lisboa, which is owned by Ho, but not others) -- --23Tung

The external link http://ho368.com/ and the textual mention of http://ho388.com/ are in conflict.Bustter 23:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The Title "Dr."

What is the source of the title Dr. Ho? Honorary, medical, earned academic? From where and date would be desirable. --Jerzy 20:53, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)

The general approach on WP is to describe the source of such degrees or titles(except in cases like the Josiah Bartlett article where we don't know any more of the name than the surname and "Dr.", but not to use the honorific, any more than we use "Mr." Without trying to thoroughly copy edit this article that is growing with (IMO) pleasingly great vigor, i'm going through again striking that title. --Jerzy 16:26, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

My would-be edit with

Kill many "Dr."s (see Talk:Stanley Ho), w/ the exception of the one in "Dr. Stanley Ho Avenue ', which is appropriate.

as summary ended in an edit conflict, which is fine. If no one else does this work, i'll find a time when the editing has subsided and do them again.

I see that (at least now) Ho's education is mentioned, but no earned degree is. If he left w/o an earned degree, the article should say so; if he ever earned any degree, the highest earned degree should be mentioned. --Jerzy 16:49, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

The Four Wives of Stanley Ho

I applaud the unusual inclusion of this information, tho it confuses me somewhat. I'm pretty sure that Portuguese, Hong Kong, PRC, and Canadian law prohibit polygamy, and therefore suspect that "wife" is being used here in a sense that differs from US usage and IMO from standard international English.

It may be worth consulting Personal relationship or other authorities in an effort to clarify this. --Jerzy 16:26, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

in this article the "wife" meaning is the same as international English. You are right that Hong Kong, PRC and Macau also prohibit polygamy. But due to the tradition culture of Chinese -- one man can have more than one wife, in about 40-50 years, polygamy is still allow. That's why he can have 4 wives right now.

24yuenching 18:05, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tnx, Ching; perhaps i understand you correctly as saying

"Wife" is used in this article to mean a woman who traditionally would have been accepted as one of several wives, even tho the place(s) she lives do not recognize her as having the legal status of being married.

I am guessing, however, when i try to understand

in about 40-50 years, polygamy is still allow.

Does this mean the same as

For the last forty or fifty years, polygamy has continued to be allowed?

I note that what you say seems to contradict the information at Marriage#Types of marriage which says

In Imperial China, formal marriage was sanctioned only between a man and a woman, although a man could take several concubines and the children from the union were considered legitimate.

My dictionary defines

concubinage as

cohabitation of persons not legally married

and i wonder if the article may not use "wives" where "concubines" (or some less formal term) would be the accurate one. --Jerzy(t) 17:38, 2004 Feb 25 (UTC)

We also have an article Concubinage. --Jerzy(t) 17:43, 2004 Feb 25 (UTC)

To Jerzy: Thanks for your questions about our article. Actually, according to mass media, the 3rd and 4th wife of Dr. Ho are not under law i.e. there's no marriage in between them. However, their positions are no different with legal wife, so we still call them "Mrs Ho". We'll try to clarify in our later. --23Tung 16:37, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And thank you, Tung, for helping understand; i think i see now: #1 was legal, and when she died, #2 could be. IMO "Mrs. Ho" is not an issue, since WP avoids honorifics like Dr., Mrs., Mr., Ms., at least when a given name is known and is sufficient to avoid ambiguity. So the real question is not names, but descriptions that don't misinform readers about the difference in legal status.

I'm also not looking for an immediate solution; i'm quite satisfied to know that the most active editors are not intending to ignore the need for clarity.

By the way, i like your use of the phrase "our article", because i am assuming you realize that the article is what amounts to being jointly "owned" by the whole body of WP editors, and the "we" involved in is in theory that whole body; one reason i am as relaxed as i am, about however long it takes to work out wordings like this, is that what it should be is not up to me, nor to you (i'm addressing 23Tung) nor to the whole group of numbered users whom i've seen here. If it takes the attention of dozens more editors to achieve consensus on how it should read, that's how may editors will get involved eventually. --Jerzy(t) 08:50, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC) --Jerzy(t) 08:50, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC)

---

I killed, regarding one wife under == Personal Life ==, the word "nearly", making it read instead

A mainlander about half of Ho's age, Leung is said to have nudged aside others.

I removed "nearly" because it is the wrong word, whether she is less or more than half: it would imply "less than" but emphasize that she is almost old enough to qualify as "half", despite the fact that the sentence is about her being young, and should emphasize how young she is, not how old she is or almost is.
I replaced it with "about" because the use of "nearly" left it unclear whether that editor intended to say "more than half, but only by a small margin" or "the difference in the ages is almost half his age". "About" is adequate, but someone who knows whether "less" or "more" is the actual case could improve it:

If she is a little less than half his age, a good wording would be

not quite half

If she is a little more than half his age, a good wording would be

barely half

--Jerzy(t) 17:31, 2004 Mar 3 (UTC)

British numbering system?

In this article, the terms billion and thousand million are used side by side. Such usage is ambigous because according US numbering standard, thousand million is the same as billion. These number should be clarified with definition and specify which system is in use. 07:00, 2004 Feb 26 . . Kowloonese [as noted by Jerzy(t) from page history]

I may have created this mixing of numbering schemes, tho i thot i saw my edits from "billion" to "thousand million" changed back. My reasoning was twofold:

• Carelessly, i assumed the influence of Hong Kong (where i expect the British scheme to prevail) would result in use of the same scheme there, which is hardly obvious [blush].
• In any case, while billion is likely to be written by either UK or US, and misunderstood by the other, and while "thousand million" feels awkward for Americans, still "thousand million" can be figured out by them, and provides the only unambiguous means of expressing these numbers.

I suggest avoiding explicit specifications of which meaning of billion is used in the article (since failing to read the whole article, or to read carefully, probably means the specification is wasted on you). IMO there's no perfect wording, but "thousand million" (with or without explanation) is probably better than any alternative approach. --Jerzy(t) 08:50, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC)

I find what i wrote a little ambiguous, and have added bolded wording to clarify it. --Jerzy(t) 18:08, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

Naming

I have changed the name in the 1st paragraph into this form

Stanley Ho (何鴻燊博士) (born November 25, 1921 in Hong Kong)

because it would be the same format as other articles which descirpting people. Plz, do not change it back. --24yuenching 15:38, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

One format works well for the great majority of WP names, and it helps to stick to that format for them. But because there is no widely recognized single format in English for expressing names from all the world's cultures, some people's names do not fit well into what is probably best described as "the default WP name format". (See, for instance, my recent contribution at List of people by name#Alphabetizing these names and the differences expressed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Japanese)#Vote (Again).) Therefore some innovation can be required, and the most important criteria are clarity and thoroughness rather than standardization. In fact, IMO one thing true about a good first sentence for Stanley Ho would be that its existence would be of interest in a discussion of adding something about bio articles, beyond Names, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). --Jerzy(t) 19:19, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

Another question, as I just stumbled upon this page for the first time. And to me, the first impression of the headline is somewhat ambiguous: "Stanley Ho … This is a Chinese name, the family name is Ho." I must say I was not exactly aware that Stanley was a Chinese name, and reading the name "Stanley Ho", I would have assumed that the family name was Ho, exactly as in "Stanley Kubrick" the family name was Kubrick. — Should this line be rewritten in a way (or in a place) that refers unambiguously to the Chinese version of Mr Ho's name (which, I suppose, was Ho Hung-sun)? Jochen64 (talk) 05:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Income is 1/3 of Macau GDP?

The article says: " As for his businesses: their incomes constitute about one-third of the gross domestic product of Macau; "; this is unimaginable! Can someone verify if it is income or revenue? thks.

Currency

There are some references to "$", without specifying whether it is HK$ or US$. (The former should be the default in an HK article, but I fear these may be US$.) Could someone who knows the amounts fill that in? LachlanA 21:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Are some statements presented in a clinical fashion

I don't want to make these changes, but some appear to be made in an unclinical fashion.

Here are some things I noticed:

the Lisboa Casino hotel business blossomed, and later became a famous international casino

- requires a reference.

STDM invests large amounts of money to promote tourism in Macau. One example is that of the Macau Tower Convention and Entertainment Center

- this is a debatable statement. Can it be written in a more neutral fashion, as it assumes that the Tower was built for promotional reasons.

Ho has also made great contributions to education

- When followed by examples, this sets the piece up as an argument rather than a factual excerpt. Perhaps rephrased as "Mr. Ho has made the following contributions to education in Macau / Asia...

in recognition of his outstanding contribution to the community, playing an important role in promoting education, sports and other community services for the youth

- Is this a direct quote?

125.31.43.33 09:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Diamond?

Anybody else hear about the Star of Stanley Ho Diamond? Its a 218-carat cushion shape. It ought to be mentioned in the article. He's going to put it on display at this casino in Macau. Not to be outdone, Steve Wynn has purchased a 234-carat pear-shaped diamond and will be displaying it at his own casino across the street. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 07:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Stock market crash in 1934??

The "History" section states that when he was 13 (i.e., in 1934) his father lost money in the stock market crash. Was there a crash in 1934, or does it mean the Great Depression which followed the crash of 1929? LachlanA (talk) 06:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This is such a one sided article on the Ho multi-millionaire. It is about time that users start citing all the details, or removing them. I have added a small amount of text in the career section regarding Mr. Ho's connection to organized crime.The citation has also been added, but badly by me. I have to admit that I could not quite get the link to the source material in the right spot. Please have a look and if anyone can clean it up I would appreciate it. I will try to see what you did so I do not make the mistake again. 119.42.75.172 (talk) 08:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Article in SCMP Magazine

"Taking control", Neil Gough (13 February 2011)

Article's secondary headline: "At stake in the bitter wrangle between Stanley Ho and his family is a fortune worth billions. The King of Gambling's life has been a riches to rags to riches story"

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Stanley Ho/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: No longer a penguin (talk · contribs) 08:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this candidate for Good Article shortly. I will be back in a few hours with the comments.No longer a penguin (talk) 08:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Initial Review

I have reviewed the article for obvious failures of the six Good Article criteria.

The article has BLP sources tag dating back from 2009 and an Update tag which has been introduced recently (by the nominator). The tags themselves are sufficient for quickfailing. The sources tag is obviously still valid - very large parts of the article are not sourced at all, especially:

• Claims are made in the lead section that are not covered in the article and need sourcing, such as "He is also Macau's wealthiest person and amongst the wealthiest in Asia", "It is also estimated that his enterprises employ almost one fourth of the workforce of Macau", "he has also invested in mainland China, Portugal, North Korea, Vietnam, the Philippines, Mozambique, Indonesia and East Timor" and so on.
• Extraordinary claims such as "He became the first student from Class D to be granted a university scholarship" need solid inline sourcing.
• The entire career section needs sourcing, except the last paragraph.
• The entire Current Positions sections needs sourcing and updating, or should be removed entirely.
• BLP claims such as "His grandchildren are a perennial subject of local social columns and paparazzi" should be sourced inline.
• Non-linear relations section is entirely not sourced.
• Honors section is mostly not sourced.

Although sourcing is the biggest problem, there are also issues in other areas visible at a glance:

• The article does not seem to comply with the manual of style for lead sections. The lead does not summarize the article and seems to be entirely detached from it.
• Coverage touches upon all the major areas (early life, career, family, philanthropy, honors), but early life and career are covered insufficiently for anything resembling broad coverage. Also, there seems to be nothing covered beyond 2011.

All in all, the article is far from becoming a Good Article and should be improved substantially before another nomination.No longer a penguin (talk) 10:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Stanley Ho/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article is rather poor. It consists of frequently broken-English and NONE of Mr. Ho's "achievements" have any sort of citing, leaving the credibility of the article extremely dubious. Many of the articles sound as though they were written to promote Mr. Ho and his interests. Gitaroomaan 00:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 06:54, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Collaboration with Japanese in WWII

This article completely ignores his rampant collaboration with the Japanese in WWII, which is what made him rich. Seven Pandas (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)