Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A. E. J. Collins

A. E. J. Collins

(title changed from AEJ Collins)

Collins at the age of thirteen, achieved the highest ever score in Cricket - and even over 100 years later his score stands unbeaten. This article tells us about the boy and how he achieved his score. The article includes pictures of Collins whilst at school and the game card for the match (1899). We learn about his army career and his early death at Ypres - and there is a link to the War Graves Commission site. The article informs readers of a relatively unknown sporting hero. <Self-nomination> Brookie 17:41, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Support A good article all round. Also just the right length for an article on this subject, jguk 18:02, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Tenative suppport. Good effort, Brookie, in 6 days! Three minor caveats: (i) should it be A.E.J. Collins?; (ii) some details are missing from the scorecards (for example, Monteath took 3 wickets in Clark's House's 1st Innings, but his bowling figures are not listed at all; similarly, bowling figures for North Town's two innings are very sketchy - are they known? Does the "scorebook [that] hangs in the pavilion at Clifton" have the details?); (iii) it is a very new article: would it be worth leaving it on Peer review for another week to allow it to settle down? -- ALoan (Talk) 20:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Brookie reply: The article was originally marked as A.E.J.Collins - rather than by the initials - but it was amended by another user. The scorecards are the surviving ones as I understand it - and as the article admits - they weren't 100% accurate in the 1890's,but I have edited the table for Monteath's bowling - but have no data on his other figures! Brookie 20:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • I originally moved the page from A.E.J Collins to AEJ Collins as there was some inconsistent dotting in the initials, and since he is only referred to by his initials it would be best to have it non-dotted. I wasn't aware of the exact policy on this; feel free to move if you think it is best. Regarding the scorebook in Clifton College's pavilion, I can find out about that (I'm a student there). Talrias 21:45, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
• Support Being a Cricket fan myself. Squash 05:30, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Object. 1) None of the images has any source information, and their qualification as "fair use" is therefore dubious at best. 2) I'm not convinced the score cards of the games actually contribute to the article on the boy. 3) For web references, please add a date of retrieval (as suggested by Wikipedia:Cite your sources). I would also like to see some book/article references (or further reading if not possible). The article currently feels a bit like it was pasted together from mentioned websites. Also some quotes need to be attributed (e.g.: his approach described as "downright reckless" - by who?) 4) I realize not a lot can be said about this man (although almost nothing is said about his athletic achievements other than the 628), but current writing is a bit short at times. Especially the final section reads a bit like a fact list. 5) A copyedit would be good. For example, POV statements ("This amazing feat") and contextless statements ("even surpassing the Old Cliftonian match" - what is special about that?) should be rewritten. 6) A bit more information on cricket would make the article more readable for those who do not know the game. A complete explanation of the sport should be left to the cricket article, but explaining a few terms wouldn't hurt. Jeronimo 08:23, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Brookie reply:

    • • Picture credits amended

    • I don't understand the criticism of the score cards - Collins' sole claim to fame is this one match - there can be nothing more relevant than this score card. Now moved to Wikisource.
    • Other Wikis have done a few edits on the page now.
    • Inevitably much of the material has been found and added to from from various web sites - as there simply isn't enough/any source material around to do otherwise; as using the net for reasearch is quite valid, I don't see this is anything to denegrate! Some school record information has come from his Clifton College school records, in the Clifton College Register.
    • I will add web reference dates shortly. Done
    • As far as I can find out there is no real record of his other sporting achievements to add.
    • I am happy about his "amazing feat" - it was! The point about the OC match being played on the close next door was that spectators were drawn from it to see him. Page altered.
    • I am not sure that much meaningful Cricket information can be added without being an irritating distraction. Most people reading this page will know enough about Cricket not to need it and anyone who doesn't is not likely to want to read it anyway! Brookie

• • • • 1) Resolved 2) Resolved 3) I see some new stuff has been added, I still have the idea this article is missing information. I'm sure all the relevant information from the websites has been used, but what about written sources, such, say, Wisden? Let me know if I'm wrong. Quotes still not attributed. 4) Somewhat improved, but see 3). 5) Resolved. 6) I don't think adding context information is irritating, as long as it is done without going into too much details. People look up articles in an encyclopedia to learn things, and they will not learn anything if the article is aimed at people who already known all about the topic. BTW, if this article makes featured status, it could be displayed on the front page, and be read by many people who know little about cricket. Jeronimo 21:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • Brookie comment - I've added a small paragraph on Cricket as an inset to give a flavour of the game for non cricketers.--Brookie 07:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • Another Brookie Comment - please see the comments on the request for a description on this page's discussion page [Comments] - where the general feeling seems to be that this requests isn't really needed. Brookie\^talk
      • This is not at all what I meant, maybe I was unclear. A 101 on cricket is not needed (please remove indeed), just some explanation of cricket (or sports) terms here and there. For example, the usage of the term "cricket XI" is common in British English, but certainly not in the US. Just adding a brief explanation of this usage, or rewriting it to better understood text is what I was asking for. There are a few other of these examples. Jeronimo 22:33, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Brookie here:have added a description of the team numbers - what were the other examples you refer to? Brookie 22:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Support Talrias 16:32, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Object. The score card belongs on Wikisource since it is primary source material. It takes up half the page, looks boring and adds little. The interesting facts are already summarised in the text. I will switch my vote to support if this is changed. (However, a photo of the score card would be interesting.) GeorgeStepanek\^talk 02:41, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Brookie reply - I have moved the scorecard to Wikisource as suggested and added a link to it. Brookie 08:44, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Object - The article is tiny. In itself that does not automatically disqualify, but the sections before and after this one cricket match have very little information. Echo everything Jeronimo said. --mav 19:15, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Brookie comment: unfortunately as Collins was killed in his twenties, nearly 100 years ago there is no real information on him ,outside his match skills, to be added to the article.Brookie 07:34, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Can you obtain a copy of Derek Winterbottom's "A Season's Fame. How AEJ Collins of Clifton College in 1899 made cricket's highest individual score" (Bristol Branch of the Historical Association, Bristol, 1991) - it is only 24 octavo pages, apparently, but has 7 plates (listed for £10 here but only £1.50 from Amazon). There must be much more detail in there. It would also be helpful to check and add anything of relevance from the 1899 or 1900 edition of Wisden and Collins' obituary from the 1915 edition. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • Brookie comment: I've ordered this from Amazon and will see what it has to say for itself! --Brookie 13:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • A Wisden reference has been added. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:48, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Support - good article Tobymarshman 20:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Support Nichalp 18:40, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)