Talk:Cree syllabics

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This article was the subject of an educational assignment that ended on 2008 fall semester. Further details are available here.

[edit]

I assume the current state of the article is just work-in-progress of the intended breakup? Anyway, while it's incomplete it needs a backlink to "old" article, whicj I provied. --Pjacobi 13:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. I intend to expand it dramatically once I get off work and home where I have my dictionaries. Thanks for adding the link. Diderot 14:25, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Copyright!![edit]

Bibliography of the Books with Cree Syllabic in: Steller, Lea-Katharina (geb. Virághalmy): Alkalmazkodni és újat adni avagy accomodatio a paleográfiában. In: Paleográfiai kalandozások. Szentendre, 1995. ISBN 9634509223

WITH COPYRIGHT, dear Tulkolahten!!!

Hymn Book. (By James Evans) Norway House, 1841.
Catechism. (Transl. James Evans) Rossville, É.N.
The Holy Bible. (Transl. John Sinclair, Henry Steinhauer) London, 1861.
Bunyan: Pilgrim's Progress. (Transl. John Sinclair) Toronto, 1900.
Cree Hymn Book. (By John Mcdougall) Toronto, 1888.
Cree Hymn Book. (By Robert Steinauer, Egerton Steinauer) Toronto, 1920.
The Epistle of Paul The Apostle To The Galatians. (Transl. Joseph Reader) Oonikup (Northwest Territory), S.A.
The Acts of The Apostles And The Epistles. London, 1891.
The Books of The New Testament. London, 1859.
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians; the Epistle of Jacob; the First Epistle General of John. (Transl. Thomas Hullburt) Rossville, 1857.
The Travellers' Spiritual Provision (Calender) S.L., S. A.
The Handbook to Scripture Truth: Words of Admonition, Counsel and Comfort. Toronto, 1893.
Prieres, Cantiques, Catéchisme Etc. En Lanque Crise. Montreal, 1886.
The Book of Common Prayer, (Transl. John Horden) London, 1889 (Addl. Printings Through 1970).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Steller (talk • contribs)

The bibliography is not a copy of content from the referenced article. Yes, there is an overlap of information, but that does not make it a violation of copyright. Information is not subject to copyright, only the presentation of that information. This bibliography does not copy the presentation. —GrantNeufeld 14:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

merge[edit]

Kwamikagami (talk · contribs) has proposed that this article be merged with Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics. However, no reason for the merger has been given. In any case, I suggest that this subject is large enough to continue to merit its own article distinct from that article. —GrantNeufeld 15:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It could certainly be its own article, but right now is little more than a stub. There are a few minor details not found in the main article, and a book list, but that's it. kwami 07:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possible improvements[edit]

It would improve this article greatly if the writing system's letters are shown. While it is described in the "Variants" section that there are many variants, it would be helpful to see a few examples and point out similarities between writing symbols.

I don't have access/permission to use any images of Cree symbols. If anyone can, please upload them to the page.

Also, the "History" section can be separated into two sections. The final paragraph in the section should be made into a "Modern usage" section. Liuyuan Chen 19:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The letters appear at Syllabics, Eastern Cree, and Western Cree. Having both again here would be rather redundant. kwami (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not understanding what you are trying to say here...

"After studying the phonology of Ojibwe, Evans had actually planned on using Roman alphabetic characters in his writing system. However, after learning of the success of the Cherokee syllabary, Evans decided to replace such symbols with alphabetic and syllabic non-Roman symbols.[1]"

This sentence is a little unclear, especially the about how Evans planned on using the Roman alphabetic characters.

I disagree; it clearly implies that Evans thought that Roman characters would be appropriate to use in representing the sounds of Ojibwe.

Also it would be interesting to have more information about how the writing system encodes the language. Scs237 (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for the latter, such info belongs on the articles for the specific scripts. "Cree" is not a single orthography. kwami (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you referring to when you say "latter"? Slightly confused...

See Evans system for his 1837 Roman orthography for Ojibwe. After leaving Credit Mission, he then was sent to Norway House where he was going to use his Roman orthography for Cree, but, as the the sentence says "However, after learning of the success of the Cherokee syllabary, Evans decided to replace such symbols with alphabetic and syllabic non-Roman symbols." Bits and pieces are already found on Wikipedia; you just need to either link to the appropriate article or place a verifiable sentence that ties these bits and pieces together. CJLippert (talk) 02:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed a few claims that were clearly wrong, and tagged one that had a spurious reference. One point I'm not certain about, though: this article stated that syllabics were first used for Ojibwe, and then adapted to Cree. However, it appears to me that Evans only used the Latin orthography for Ojibwe, that the original syllabics was used for Cree, and that only a later modified version was ever used for Ojibwe.

James Evans did not create the syllabary.[edit]

Frankly, I'm a little tired of reading about how some white guy had to invent a written language for us, because it's erroneous. James Evans did not create our syllabary.

To begin with, Evans didn't cross paths with us until the early 1800s. But Father Francis Bressani, a Jesuit missionary, met us in Quebec in 1653 and reported that he found us fully literate: We wrote with "little sticks instead of books which [we] marked with signs."

Buff Parry, director of the Native Heritage and Cultural Centre in Alberta, has read James Evans' journals extensively, and he says "Any reference in his journals to teaching the script did not mention that he had actually invented the word symbols. ... Later on missionaries such as James Evans became aware of some of the Algonquian scripts and adopted them for teaching the Christian religion."

There's also the fact that the Cree syllabary and the Creek (Muskogee) syllabary are almost identical (I'd link to the latter, but I'm not sure how to do that here), making it impossible for Evans to be the progenitor because he never, ever crossed paths with the Creek, who lived so far to the south that he probably wasn't aware they existed, and they him. Thousands of years ago, the Cree and the Creek were both Eastern Woodland peoples, which would explain the commonalities between our written languages--and rule out the idea that the syllabary is only a couple hundred years old.

I ask that we consider this with logic, and not the colonial revision of historical events. They say history is written by the victors, and I fully believe that's what happened here: The settlers of Evans' time refused to believe Indians were intelligent enough to think for themselves, and the myth persists to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.159.148 (talk) 02:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think your ideas are very important. Can you provide references for them? The bolder an idea is— and yours is very bold— the more it needs backup as far as references to scholarly publications. —Sburke (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If the Muskogee syllabary is the Cherokee syllabary, then Evans is not part of the conversation. Sequoyah invented his own syllabary. Or are you saying that the two syllabaries are related? To propose a major rewriting of history will take very serious evidence. You bring in as an argument, "The settlers of Evans' time refused to believe Indians were intelligent enough to think for themselves, and the myth persists to this day." That is not the topic here. Let's discuss the origin of the Cree syllabary.Pete unseth (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is discussed in Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics and is a good reason to merge this into that. 216.193.169.238 (talk) 13:23, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]